Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar 50/2.8 with 5-digit serial Nr.31191 dating and serial system question

[kedama]

Hello,

I have a Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar 50mm f/2.8.

Serial number: Nr. 31191 (5 digits).

This seems unusual to me, as it does not match the typical CZJ serial number ranges I

have seen.

Is this a normal production serial number, or could it belong to a different system (such as a repair, reassembly, or special batch)?

Any information about its approximate production period or origin would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[mshchem]

Is this Leica thread?

 

[kedama]

Is this Leica thread?

It is M42 mount, not Leica thread.
I can also provide photos if helpful.

 

[mshchem]

It is M42 mount, not Leica thread.
I can also provide photos if helpful.

So then is this Contax???

 

[kedama]

So then is this Contax???

It is definitely M42 mount.
Here are clearer photos of the mount.

Does the mount construction look original to you?

 

[mshchem]

I have no idea.

 

[reddesert]

It doesn't actually say "Carl Zeiss." It says "C Z Jena." That's likely a sign that it came from sometime in the postwar period (say 1950s-60s) when the eastern Zeiss plant had lost the rights to the Carl Zeiss trademark in the west. It probably originally came on a Praktica SLR. I don't know much about these but here is a thread with a very similar lens: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cz-jena-tessar-50mm-f2-8-info-needed.69820/

 

[kedama]

It doesn't actually say "Carl Zeiss." It says "C Z Jena." That's likely a sign that it came from sometime in the postwar period (say 1950s-60s) when the eastern Zeiss plant had lost the rights to the Carl Zeiss trademark in the west. It probably originally came on a Praktica SLR. I don't know much about these but here is a thread with a very similar lens: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cz-jena-tessar-50mm-f2-8-info-needed.69820/

Thank you, that is very helpful.

However, I am still curious about the 5-digit serial number, as it does not match typical CZJ serial ranges.

Has anyone seen similar examples?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello,

I have a Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar 50mm f/2.8.

Serial number: Nr. 31191 (5 digits).

This seems unusual to me, as it does not match the typical CZJ serial number ranges I View attachment 423252View attachment 423253View attachment 423254have seen.

Is this a normal production serial number, or could it belong to a different system (such as a repair, reassembly, or special batch)?

Any information about its approximate production period or origin would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

from the images, it looks like the lens has some anti-reflection coating, which is something that wasn't invented until the 1930s by Zeiss. So, it's unlikely older than that.

 

[kedama]

from the images, it looks like the lens has some anti-reflection coating, which is something that wasn't invented until the 1930s by Zeiss. So, it's unlikely older than that.

Thank you, that makes sense.

 

[r_a_feldman]

It doesn't actually say "Carl Zeiss." It says "C Z Jena." That's likely a sign that it came from sometime in the postwar period (say 1950s-60s) when the eastern Zeiss plant had lost the rights to the Carl Zeiss trademark in the west. It probably originally came on a Praktica SLR. I don't know much about these but here is a thread with a very similar lens: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cz-jena-tessar-50mm-f2-8-info-needed.69820/

The serial number on the lens linked to is 31893, which is a very similar 5-digit number.

 

[kedama]

The serial number on the lens linked to is 31893, which is a very similar 5-digit number.

Thank you, that is very interesting.

The serial number you mentioned (31893) is indeed very close to mine (31191), so it seems these 5-digit examples might belong to a similar group.

Do you know if there is any information about how these 5-digit serial numbers were used? Perhaps a specific production batch or special series?

 

[reddesert]

Without being an expert on the history of Carl Zeiss or its serial numbers: After WW II, the original Zeiss plant in Jena was in the eastern part, and at some point the directors/management of the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Stiftung = foundation) fled to the western part (along with maybe some of the equipment/tooling and some of the employees, I don't know). They reconstituted themselves "Carl Zeiss" in Oberkochen. Their early production is often labeled Zeiss-Opton (I have a camera with a Zeiss-Opton Tessar), and at some point, they persuaded a West German court to hand them the rights to the Carl Zeiss trademark in the West, after which the eastern Zeiss had to label its products "aus Jena" or similar, eventually used the name Jenoptik, and so on. Such a division continued until reunification, I think.

That's why this lens says "C.Z. Jena." The chaos and discontinuity caused by the war and division of Germany is much greater than a discontinuity in serial number sequences (you are from Japan so that's probably not hard to imagine). The lens was made by an entity that was in some sense the descendant of pre-war Carl Zeiss, but in a legal sense it was different.

 

[JPD]

The "C. Z. Jena" and red rhombus instead of "T" are most probably done like that for legal reasons, and note that it says "Germany" instead of "DDR" or "GDR", so I think it was made before East Germany was founded.

Maybe https://zeissikonveb.de has the answer?

 

[kedama]

Without being an expert on the history of Carl Zeiss or its serial numbers: After WW II, the original Zeiss plant in Jena was in the eastern part, and at some point the directors/management of the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung (Stiftung = foundation) fled to the western part (along with maybe some of the equipment/tooling and some of the employees, I don't know). They reconstituted themselves "Carl Zeiss" in Oberkochen. Their early production is often labeled Zeiss-Opton (I have a camera with a Zeiss-Opton Tessar), and at some point, they persuaded a West German court to hand them the rights to the Carl Zeiss trademark in the West, after which the eastern Zeiss had to label its products "aus Jena" or similar, eventually used the name Jenoptik, and so on. Such a division continued until reunification, I think.

That's why this lens says "C.Z. Jena." The chaos and discontinuity caused by the war and division of Germany is much greater than a discontinuity in serial number sequences (you are from Japan so that's probably not hard to imagine). The lens was made by an entity that was in some sense the descendant of pre-war Carl Zeiss, but in a legal sense it was different.

Thank you, reddesert, this is very insightful.

Your explanation about the postwar split and the disruption in production helps a lot. It makes sense that serial numbers might not follow the usual patterns during that period.

I am particularly interested in the idea that manufacturing and documentation were inconsistent right after the war.

Have you seen other CZJ lenses from that period with similarly unusual serial numbers?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

 

[kedama]

The "C. Z. Jena" and red rhombus instead of "T" are most probably done like that for legal reasons, and note that it says "Germany" instead of "DDR" or "GDR", so I think it was made before East Germany was founded.

Maybe https://zeissikonveb.de has the answer?

Thank you, JPD, that is very helpful.

Your point about the "C.Z. Jena" marking and "Germany" suggesting a pre-DDR period is very interesting.

Based on this, would you say a late 1940s production is most likely?

Also, have you encountered other Tessar lenses with such short (5-digit) serial numbers?

I appreciate your insight.

 

[JPD]

Thank you, JPD, that is very helpful.

Your point about the "C.Z. Jena" marking and "Germany" suggesting a pre-DDR period is very interesting.

Based on this, would you say a late 1940s production is most likely?

Also, have you encountered other Tessar lenses with such short (5-digit) serial numbers?

I appreciate your insight.

That is my guess. I might be wrong, so contact https://zeissikonveb.de and see if they know more.

The later "Jena" and "Aus Jena" lenses, marked so for legal reasons were marked "DDR" and had the East German quality mark (an 1 inside a Q). And the normal production of post war Carl Zeiss Jena had serial numbers starting at 3 million so the five digit number is strange...

Here is a Biotar with "C. Z. Jena", a five digit serial number and a red rhombus:

 

[kedama]

That is my guess. I might be wrong, so contact https://zeissikonveb.de and see if they know more.

The later "Jena" and "Aus Jena" lenses, marked so for legal reasons were marked "DDR" and had the East German quality mark (an 1 inside a Q). And the normal production of post war Carl Zeiss Jena had serial numbers starting at 3 million so the five digit number is strange...

Here is a Biotar with "C. Z. Jena", a five digit serial number and a red rhombus:

That is very interesting, thank you.

It seems there are other lenses (like this Biotar) with similar 5-digit serial numbers and markings.

Do you think this could indicate a specific production batch or a transitional period rather than an individual anomaly?

Also, could these have been reassembled or reissued lenses from older components?