Have you come across a well researched (HUMAN) resource that lists the exact films famous photographers were using?

[Certain Exposures]

I am trying to determine the exact color film stock Ernest Cole used in New York.

Several months ago, I was trying to determine the exact color film stock Gary Winogrand used for some beach photographs. I never found an answer with concrete evidence.

 

[_T_]

It’s not the sort of information that gets publicized by artists, or galleries, or curators, or historians. It’s largely irrelevant to the kind of conversation happening in art.

The kind of people who would need to know what specific materials an artist used would be conservators or archivists. People personally working hands on with the materials in a technical capacity.

But an audience member asking what kind of developer a photographer used to achieve a certain effect is sort of like asking who manufactured the canvas Van Gogh used to paint The Starry Night. It’s the wrong line of questioning to follow when interrogating the work.

And for an artist looking to take inspiration from the decisions contained in the work, it’s the wrong aspect of the work to be inspired by. Emulating the techniques of another artist is one thing but when it gets down to the level of what materials they used it becomes an unintentional attempt at either parody or forgery. Either way not really something of interest to art. Better to make your own decisions based on the needs dictated by the conditions of your own ideas.

 

[mshchem]

It’s not the sort of information that gets publicized by artists, or galleries, or curators, or historians. It’s largely irrelevant to the kind of conversation happening in art.

The kind of people who would need to know what specific materials an artist used would be conservators or archivists. People personally working hands on with the materials in a technical capacity.

But an audience member asking what kind of developer a photographer used to achieve a certain effect is sort of like asking who manufactured the canvas Van Gogh used to paint The Starry Night. It’s the wrong line of questioning to follow when interrogating the work.

And for an artist looking to take inspiration from the decisions contained in the work, it’s the wrong aspect of the work to be inspired by. Emulating the techniques of another artist is one thing but when it gets down to the level of what materials they used it becomes an unintentional attempt at either parody or forgery. Either way not really something of interest to art. Better to make your own decisions based on the needs dictated by the conditions of your own ideas.

So then you don't know what the OP asks? I don't think forgery is the goal here.

 

[_T_]

So then you don't know what the OP asks? I don't think forgery is the goal here.

Not only do I not know, I don’t know of any commonly available resources that could help answer the question.

The only way I can think of to find out would be to contact the people involved in the technical handling of the materials in question. Which I alluded to above. Maybe their publisher or the publisher’s print shop would know. Or if the work is in a publicly funded art museum you could ask their staff and they might be willing to investigate or allow you to schedule time with the materials to investigate yourself.

Even those might not be fruitful lines of investigation.

The idea of photographers sharing the materials and techniques involved in the process of creating a specific work is relatively new, around the time of the resurgence of film, as people wanted to show that their work was in fact made through an analog process thus differentiating them from digital photographers.

Unless the artist wrote a book about their process like ansel adams or the choice of material was integral to the work like Richard Mosse, there was a long period where people didn’t publicize much more than maybe what kind of camera was used, if that.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Presumably Ernest Cole worked in New York in the 1960's, and some of that work has been retrieved from a newfound stash of his old negatives. But was everything a negative? And if it has come to light just recently, it was probably scanned and digitally cleaned up. The odds of actual color prints that old surviving in decent condition, by someone with a limited income, are low. And most color negs that old wouldn't be in great shape either. So did they find some slides; and if so, the trend of the times would be Kodachrome. He wasn't known for color work, so there's little to go on. Maybe you should contact the research project dedicated to him directly.

 

[BrianShaw]

This is a lot of chitchat to say “I have no idea.”

 

[mshchem]

C-22, C-23 whatever it takes!

 

[MattKing]

I am trying to determine the exact color film stock Ernest Cole used in New York.

Several months ago, I was trying to determine the exact color film stock Gary Winogrand used for some beach photographs. I never found an answer with concrete evidence.

Probably the film that they could get the best deal on at the time.
Or if they used a quote in support of an application for a grant, it may have been that film.
Although if they used someone else to make prints for them, that may have been who made the decision for them.
The same applies to work that was commissioned by a magazine - their printers may have had requirements.
In most cases, if a photographer hasn't made their preference public - and some did/do - they probably changed what they used whenever it made sense.
And there is almost no reason for anyone other than an archivist with negatives or slides in hand to care.

 

[Milpool]

Plenty of photographers have publicized the materials they use(d). Did OP really need this 101 lecture or are you interested in becoming a moderator here?

It’s not the sort of information that gets publicized by artists, or galleries, or curators, or historians. It’s largely irrelevant to the kind of conversation happening in art.

The kind of people who would need to know what specific materials an artist used would be conservators or archivists. People personally working hands on with the materials in a technical capacity.

But an audience member asking what kind of developer a photographer used to achieve a certain effect is sort of like asking who manufactured the canvas Van Gogh used to paint The Starry Night. It’s the wrong line of questioning to follow when interrogating the work.

And for an artist looking to take inspiration from the decisions contained in the work, it’s the wrong aspect of the work to be inspired by. Emulating the techniques of another artist is one thing but when it gets down to the level of what materials they used it becomes an unintentional attempt at either parody or forgery. Either way not really something of interest to art. Better to make your own decisions based on the needs dictated by the conditions of your own ideas.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I am trying to determine the exact color film stock Ernest Cole used in New York.

Several months ago, I was trying to determine the exact color film stock Gary Winogrand used for some beach photographs. I never found an answer with concrete evidence.

Ernest Cole's archives, including his negatives (60 000 of them, found in a Swedish bank after his death), are managed by his nephew, Leslie Matlaisane. Magnum also has parts of it. Someone there would either know the info you are looking for, or could give you the contact of Matlaisane.

https://www.magnumphotos.com/arts-culture/society-arts-culture/ernest-cole-rediscovered-archive-apartheid-black-history/

Winogrand's archives are housed at the Center for Creative Photography in Arizona. If you write at the people managing the archives, they should be able to give you the answer. Or you can go to Arizona and check it youself .

https://aspace.ccp.arizona.edu/repositories/2/resources/351

 

[djdister]

I'm betting that they shot whatever color film was common at the time, and available in their location. And over their body of work, they likely shot multiple types of film, both color and black and white. Once you glean this information (if you ever do), what are you going to do with it?

 

[DREW WILEY]

In this case, the individual in question is known almost exclusively for his black and white work. I could find only a single color image over the web, with no specifics. Alex gives the appropriate links for further inquiry.

 

[djdister]

In this case, the individual in question is known almost exclusively for his black and white work. I could find only a single color image over the web, with no specifics. Alex gives the appropriate links for further inquiry.

Yeah, I did look at his black and white work, and I'm putting my money on Tri-X for that...

 

[wiltw]

shot in US post 1966. likely Kodak...

• If color neg, Kodacolor-X
• If color transparency, Ektachrome-X, Kodachrome-II
• If B&W neg, mostly Tri-X or Plus-X (or maybe Verichrome Pan if rollfilm

but being of South African origin, it could have been that he preferred a European emulsion from Agfa or Ilford.

 

[Certain Exposures]

Just FYI, I might not reply for a bit. However, I am slowly going through all the responses to the threads I made this weekend. I read everything.

 

[Graham06]

This is actually the sort of question that modern LLMs are suited for but you won’t be able to just ask ChatGPT etc. you will need proof for every answer. Perhaps perplexity.ai might help but really you’d need to make your own program to build the db yourself.

The largest film developer db I know of is filmdev.org which stores its data in Flickr tags.

You also have the dbpedia nerds who have made their academic careers around dbifying everything but who probably won’t and can’t help you. ( And even less so Peter Thiel and Palantir )

For specific questions probably good ol google might help. If you can find the negative stash images someone on this thread mentioned you could perhaps look yourself. The film edge info might be visible for the film type

 

[mshchem]

Arizona has 106 cubic feet of Winogrand's legacy. A true archive. I'm sure you can get answers on your questions.
You might start by talking to your local public library, talk to a librarian, they love to help, may have contacts.

 

[Graham06]

Kodak Tri-X is one specific, attested answer to your question

https://artblart.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/ernest-cole-house-of-bondage-06.jpg

(tho I see you wanted colour film type)

 

[Dr. no]

C-22, C-23 whatever it takes!

 

[Dr. no]

It’s not the sort of information that gets publicized by artists, or galleries, or curators, or historians. It’s largely irrelevant to the kind of conversation happening in art.

The kind of people who would need to know what specific materials an artist used would be conservators or archivists. People personally working hands on with the materials in a technical capacity.

But an audience member asking what kind of developer a photographer used to achieve a certain effect is sort of like asking who manufactured the canvas Van Gogh used to paint The Starry Night. It’s the wrong line of questioning to follow when interrogating the work.

"the kind of conversation happening in art"? It is the question on the topic you replied to. It is of direct and clear relevance to this conversation that you are engaging in. What obnoxious imposed pedantry!

I will agree that conservators would be the most likely to know.

Asking what chemicals and processes were used to create the color palate of an artist is a large part of "interrogating the work". Have you been to the van Gogh museum lately? Or seen his work displayed anywhere? There is often a discussion of his use of unstable pigments and the color changes they have undergone, certainly part of "interrogating the work", as what we see now is a chromatically degraded version of what he saw, in many cases.

And specifically, people are definitely interested in his canvas suppliers: van gogh's canvas

I like your examples, but not your interpretation. Van Gogh was always working with what he could afford, which fits the question here, and most of the reasonable replies.

At a glance, I would say Kodacolor-X, but could also be Ansco, 3M or others. I would guess whatever was convenient.

 

[_T_]

"the kind of conversation happening in art"? It is the question on the topic you replied to. It is of direct and clear relevance to this conversation that you are engaging in. What obnoxious imposed pedantry!

I will agree that conservators would be the most likely to know.

Asking what chemicals and processes were used to create the color palate of an artist is a large part of "interrogating the work". Have you been to the van Gogh museum lately? Or seen his work displayed anywhere? There is often a discussion of his use of unstable pigments and the color changes they have undergone, certainly part of "interrogating the work", as what we see now is a chromatically degraded version of what he saw, in many cases.

And specifically, people are definitely interested in his canvas suppliers: van gogh's canvas

I like your examples, but not your interpretation. Van Gogh was always working with what he could afford, which fits the question here, and most of the reasonable replies.

I see how it could appear so if you misinterpret the entire context of the post, which is about artists being inspired by and emulating the work of other artists.

In that context, what op is asking reduces the entire creative process of a person down to a set of technical specifications to be recreated, stripping the work of its humanity and missing the entire point of being inspired by art.

It’s the same sort of thing that I see a lot of photographers complain about on other platforms. Where someone compliments their camera instead of the photographer for taking good photos. The gear is largely irrelevant to the ability of the photographer to make a good photo so asking them what film they’re using isn’t going to help you make good photos like they do.

 

[Dr. no]

As the first reply, the only context was the initial question. which was straightforward and did not specify that he was not looking at forgery or content appreciation. As a website, this place is full of people delving into the technical aspects of photography and a question about film stocks is as expected as Vincent himself asking Camille about where he could get that color of chrome yellow.
"interrogating the work" smelled of being rebuked by an MFA in pedagogy for wasting time on pedestrian aspects such as quality of brushes or draftsmanship and not focusing on intent. Some of us here consider ourselves artists, some technicians, many are both, and some just like making images, but all just like to have questions answered straightforwardly.
If I stepped into a discussion you were having with the OP elsewhere, I'll step back out...

 

[Alex Benjamin]

what op is asking reduces the entire creative process of a person down to a set of technical specifications to be recreated, stripping the work of its humanity and missing the entire point of being inspired by art.

A bit overly dramatic, no ?

On the question of "wanting to emulate", it's a good bet that the OP is aware that any film stock Ernest Cole or Garry Winogrand used is long gone and thus impossible to imitate/recreate. Especially colour stock.

More important, his question may have nothing to do with "being inspired by art" and everything to do with trying to understand the artist. And on that front, there is a basic principle: nothing, no information is deemed unimportant until you've analysed it and its impact on the artist, on the artist's process, on the work itself.

In other words, as an example, it can be irrelevant for the objective of "being inspired by the art" to know that photographer X used Kodachrome while shooting in New York City in the 50s, but it can be extremely interesting for the understanding of photographer X's work and/or artistic vision to know that he chose Kodachrome to shoot in New York City in the 50s, and to try to figure out if it was because that particular film stock inspired him in such or such way.

 

[MattKing]

I think of questions like this as being similar to when cooks ask a friend which type of mustard they use for extra zing in that egg salad sandwich recipe that everyone likes.
It is an enquiry about a bit of nuance that mostly satisfies curiosity.
It also makes me think of an anecdote my father shared about Fred Herzog, who apparently insisted that his Kodachrome films be sent all the way (~1,300 km) from his local Kodak Canada Kodachrome lab in North Vancouver, BC Canada, and the Eastman Kodak Kodachrome lab in Palo Alto, California, USA. While both labs were always well in spec, apparently Mr. Herzog was convinced that Palo Alto was better.
Photographers can be interesting sorts.

 

[Don_ih]

The idea of photographers sharing the materials and techniques involved in the process of creating a specific work is relatively new, around the time of the resurgence of film, as people wanted to show that their work was in fact made through an analog process thus differentiating them from digital photographers.

I've seen lots of references to materials and techniques used in photography books from 50 years ago. Photographers have always been interested in what someone else used, especially if the result was unusual.

Winogrand shot Kodachrome and Ektachrome. He shot slides - apparently about 45000 of them.