Trying to replicate Rolleiflex fault

[Elmarc]

Hello all
I recently experienced an intermittent fault with my Rolleiflex Automat whereby on some occasions the shutter will not fire after advancing the film.
If I advance the film again the shutter will fire.
It's as if the camera/shutter is in uncocked mode.
It happened three times during the last roll. Never a problem before that.
I should mention that for various reasons the camera had been loaded and stayed in its cocked state at frame 1 for a couple of months but after some research I discovered that cocked or uncocked should not make any difference.
So, after removing the said roll I decided to try to replicate the fault but was unable to.
The shutter fires after every advance with a test roll or without.
If the fault persists I will be sending the camera off at some point to fellow member Alex Varas as I live in Spain but for now I am curious if any other Rolleiflex users have experienced anything similar or if not, have any ideas what the problem could or could not be.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated as usual.

 

[BrianShaw]

Cocking issues like described are not unheard of with Compur shutters that are in need of a routine overhaul.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Not certain what you mean by 'the shutter will not fire.' The shutter button will not move? If not, how did you advance to the next frame?

The shutter button moves but you can tell that the shutter itself did not open and close?

Do a test roll and watch the shutter from the front as oyu wind frame to frame. See if it is opening up during the cycle.

Well, best bet is to get a cleaning and adjustment. It could be the wind system, it could be the shutter cocking system, could be the shutter itself.

 

[Elmarc]

Not certain what you mean by 'the shutter will not fire.' The shutter button will not move? If not, how did you advance to the next frame?

The shutter button moves but you can tell that the shutter itself did not open and close?

Do a test roll and watch the shutter from the front as oyu wind frame to frame. See if it is opening up during the cycle.

Well, best bet is to get a cleaning and adjustment. It could be the wind system, it could be the shutter cocking system, could be the shutter itself.

Hi Dan,
What I mean is by 'the shutter will not fire' is that the button can be depressed all the way through its travel without firing just as it can before the film is advanced/shutter cocked.
So if you can imagine the sequence of events:
Advance film
Go to fire shutter but the button acts as though it is an uncocked state and therefore with not make an exposure.
Then, I am able to advance the film once more ie: the lever is not in is locked/cocked state.
Once the shutter is cocked for a second time it will open and make an exposure.
But I cannot replicate the fault after many cycles with and without film. The shutter button activates the shutter which opens everytime.
I hope that is clear.
I should mention that the camera was serviced by an ex Rollei tech albeit about 5 years ago.

 

[BrianShaw]

I should mention that the camera was serviced by an ex Rollei tech albeit about 5 years ago.

Same answers. These things happen, sometimes sooner than 5 years. We wish that were not the case but it sometimes is...

 

[Dan Daniel]

Same answers. These things happen, sometimes sooner than 5 years. We wish that were not the case but it sometimes is...

Yep. And sometimes old cameras have worn such that an adjustment puts them on the edge of working, and a little more wear pushes them out of adjustment. And older parts can be more susceptible to grease or dirt. Best bet is to have it looked over. Or keep going for now and maybe it was just tired or such from sitting and recent usage has cleaned out some gunk.

 

[Elmarc]

Yes, I am very familiar with the quirks of old cameras from a user if not technical standpoint and will continue to use it. However, I have been able to replicate certain faults in the past with various other cameras but not this time. Lets see what happens on the next roll..

 

[John Wiegerink]

Is this problem random through the whole 12 exp roll or just the first frame when starting a new roll?

 

[Elmarc]

Is this problem random through the whole 12 exp roll or just the first frame when starting a new roll?

It happened randomly and on just the last roll.
As the camera had been loaded for some time I initially thought that I had already taken one photo and not wound on, but the fault occurred again at around frame 5 and then frame 11. So I am presuming frames 1,5 and 11 will be blank. I did wonder whether it could be a fault with the shutter button because the fault occurs when the shutter is (presumably) cocked by the crank but the shutter button can be depressed as though the camera is in the uncocked state. The strange phenomenon is that the crank is able to be re-cocked without actually taking an exposure and there is no typical click as the shutter button trips the shutter prior.

 

[OAPOli]

OP, I think it would be wiser to wait until you have developed the film to confirm that there was a fault to begin with.

 

[Elmarc]

OP, I think it would be wiser to wait until you have developed the film to confirm that there was a fault to begin with.

Yes, of course developing the roll will be next even though there was clearly a fault which will almost certainly result in blank frames.
At this point I am trying to replicate that fault.

 

[OAPOli]

The proof is in the pudding negative.

 

[Laurent]

aaaaaaargh, this looks a LOT like what happened to me yesterday. I was doing some shots of a WWII bunker in the surf and found several times that I could depress the trigger with no effect.

Finished the roll that way, and when I reloaded everything seemed back to normal... Will see when I develop the roll, but the camera may have earned a trip to Optomeca...

 

[BrianShaw]

Not sure if this will help the thought process, or the fault replication, but interesting knowledge nonetheless. Hope it helps in some way, form, or manner.

How tight should the winding action be on a Rolleiflex?

I have two rolleiflex 3.5e cameras. They are so similar that their serial numbers are even only a few thousand apart. However, they do have significantly different thightnesses when winding. On one camera, the winding is smooth but seems stiffer. There is a noticeable bump on its forward stroke...

www.photrio.com

 

[Elmarc]

aaaaaaargh, this looks a LOT like what happened to me yesterday. I was doing some shots of a WWII bunker in the surf and found several times that I could depress the trigger with no effect.

Finished the roll that way, and when I reloaded everything seemed back to normal... Will see when I develop the roll, but the camera may have earned a trip to Optomeca...

Yes Laurent, that sounds a lot like what I experienced. Were you able to advance the film/re-cock even though you theoretically did not expose a frame? I presume so as you finished the roll.

 

[Elmarc]

Not sure if this will help the thought process, or the fault replication, but interesting knowledge nonetheless. Hope it helps in some way, form, or manner.

How tight should the winding action be on a Rolleiflex?

I have two rolleiflex 3.5e cameras. They are so similar that their serial numbers are even only a few thousand apart. However, they do have significantly different thightnesses when winding. On one camera, the winding is smooth but seems stiffer. There is a noticeable bump on its forward stroke...

www.photrio.com

Thank you Brian, very helpful. I just skimmed the posts but will read in greater depth later.

 

[Laurent]

Yes Laurent, that sounds a lot like what I experienced. Were you able to advance the film/re-cock even though you theoretically did not expose a frame? I presume so as you finished the roll.

Yes, I was able to advance till the end of the roll, but I'm afraid each time I triggerred the shutter it did nothing...

Today the camera is operating flawlessly, and I think I hear a new 'rock' before the shutter click

 

[itsdoable]

There are 2 scenarios,

- the wind mechanism did not cock the shutter (which can happen if the mechanism doesn't push the internal lever far enough to latch, or the paw that latches it is sticky and did not catch)
- the shutter release immediately as the wind lever was returned, which happens when the shutter is sticky and does not fully return after the last exposure.

Looking at the processed negatives should tell you which. If you are certain it did not cock properly, you can always re-cock it using the double exposure mechanism.

 

[Elmarc]

There are 2 scenarios,

- the wind mechanism did not cock the shutter (which can happen if the mechanism doesn't push the internal lever far enough to latch, or the paw that latches it is sticky and did not catch)
- the shutter release immediately as the wind lever was returned, which happens when the shutter is sticky and does not fully return after the last exposure.

Looking at the processed negatives should tell you which. If you are certain it did not cock properly, you can always re-cock it using the double exposure mechanism.

Thank you,
The forward/back wind sequence locks as usual so that the lever cannot travel until the shutter is fired. However, once the shutter is depressed and nothing happens the lever is free to move again.
If I could replicate the fault it would be obvious which one of the 2 scenarios it is.
From your descriptions, I am guessing the former.
I plan to load another film tomorrow and develop the previous asap.
P.S Unfortunately the standard Automat MX does not have the double exposure function only the MX EVS.

 

[BrianShaw]

Can you attempt to replicate without film?

 

[Dan Daniel]

Can you attempt to replicate without film?

On a spool, put 2-4 wraps of masking tape around the center at one end. The goal is to add enough thickness to the spool that it rides against the thin silver gear at the left end of the spool chamber smoothly. An 'ideal' setup of a Rolleiflex leaves that gear just beyond on barely at the spool, counting on the initial paper wrapping to provide contact.

Next, take a piece of an index card and put it between the two rollers where you would feed the film for loading. Maybe 2 inches by 1 inch. Apply a little tape at one end to hold it under the rollers when you close the camera.

Close and latch the back. You might hear the Automat system clunk into action. Wind the lever. If it worked, the counter will start moving and you'll be at 1 almost immediately. And the rest of the roll will act as if there is film in there. If not, use another layer of index card.

In winding, watch the shutter blades. Vary winding speed, etc. See if the blades open at all in the winding process. Set a speed that will make seeing the shuter open and close easy, and see what happens.

The shutter cocking mechanism on the Automats seem prone to wearing out and not doing a full cocking so the shutter doesn't fire. This can be worn 'beyond adjustment.' Which means doing some hacks to add material to one piece or more to get enough movement to cock the shutter.

 

[Elmarc]

On a spool, put 2-4 wraps of masking tape around the center at one end. The goal is to add enough thickness to the spool that it rides against the thin silver gear at the left end of the spool chamber smoothly. An 'ideal' setup of a Rolleiflex leaves that gear just beyond on barely at the spool, counting on the initial paper wrapping to provide contact.

Next, take a piece of an index card and put it between the two rollers where you would feed the film for loading. Maybe 2 inches by 1 inch. Apply a little tape at one end to hold it under the rollers when you close the camera.

Close and latch the back. You might hear the Automat system clunk into action. Wind the lever. If it worked, the counter will start moving and you'll be at 1 almost immediately. And the rest of the roll will act as if there is film in there. If not, use another layer of index card.

In winding, watch the shutter blades. Vary winding speed, etc. See if the blades open at all in the winding process. Set a speed that will make seeing the shuter open and close easy, and see what happens.

The shutter cocking mechanism on the Automats seem prone to wearing out and not doing a full cocking so the shutter doesn't fire. This can be worn 'beyond adjustment.' Which means doing some hacks to add material to one piece or more to get enough movement to cock the shutter.

Thank you Dan,
I have been firing the camera without and without film to try and replicate the problem while keeping an eye in the shutter blades at the point of exposure. They seem snappy and open every time.
I will try your method also. Much easer than having to re-spool the film back onto the reel every time.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Thank you Dan,
I have been firing the camera without and without film to try and replicate the problem while keeping an eye in the shutter blades at the point of exposure. They seem snappy and open every time.
I will try your method also. Much easer than having to re-spool the film back onto the reel every time.

If you put masking tape on the paper, maybe two pieces, it will trip the automat sensor. Usually the original tape at the first frame will work. Or tape the end of the film down and run the roll back and forth, no need for respooling. Either cut the end of the film back to about frame 14 (or place tape here), or just expect it to trip early after closing the back.

Wind with varying speeds. Shutter cocking oocurs at about the middle of the spin- you can feel the maximum tension- so go slowly, etc.

 

[Elmarc]

If you put masking tape on the paper, maybe two pieces, it will trip the automat sensor. Usually the original tape at the first frame will work. Or tape the end of the film down and run the roll back and forth, no need for respooling. Either cut the end of the film back to about frame 14 (or place tape here), or just expect it to trip early after closing the back.

Wind with varying speeds. Shutter cocking oocurs at about the middle of the spin- you can feel the maximum tension- so go slowly, etc.

Thank you Dan
I will attempt this asap and report back.

 

[outwest]

I once was checking out an old Rollei and found out that the cocking mechanism was worn enough to not cock the shutter but only when the focus rack was fully extended.