Ilford FB paper washing question

[john_s]

I stopped using a vertical washer and went back to large trays. I found the prints stuck to the dividers stopping any flow of water. If the prints were just floating in water it would be one thing, but mine were sticking to the panels and not washing properly.

I noticed this, and I had a set of dividers made using a material that was textured on both sides, and that helped.

 

[pentaxuser]

This sounds like more than a slight modification

Well that is my feeling as well The additional time is appreciable IMO and as several people feel the same way about the shortness of the Ilford method then it might be as well to notify Ilford if members have found that the Ilford method does not pass the RHT test

If Ilford have genuinely made a mistake then better it is told so

Just out of interest is there anyone who has found that adhering to the Ilford sequence is OK? Sometimes I think that anyone satisfied with the Ilford sequence may keep their heads below the parapet for fear of being embroiled in an argument.

Here's the Ilford video for those who wish to check the sequence and times against what they found to be too short a period to pass the RHT test. Ilford does mention this test in the video but does claim its own process gives optimum archival properties to the washed paper

The sequence is from 2:20 to 3:05



pentaxuser

 

[Maris]

If you have a vertical print washer there is a much easier and less chancy method of FB print washing than the Ilford 5 +10 +5 sequence.

Just give the FB prints a quick rinse to get the surface fixer off them, then a generous soak in hypo clear, then load the print washer, turn the water on,
and walk away and relax for 45minutes to an hour. If your print washer is any good the prints will be washed to archival standard.

This is what I do. No failures in 50 years.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

No failures in 50 years.

but You will have to wait another 100 years to be sure.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

If you have a vertical print washer there is a much easier and less chancy method of FB print washing than the Ilford 5 +10 +5 sequence.

Just give the FB prints a quick rinse to get the surface fixer off them, then a generous soak in hypo clear, then load the print washer, turn the water on,
and walk away and relax for 45minutes to an hour. If your print washer is any good the prints will be washed to archival standard.

This is what I do. No failures in 50 years.

The issue here is water use. Conserving water is becoming a big issue in many parts of the US that are currently experiencing drought and falling reservoir levels. Conservation is mandated in some places and encouraged in most others affected by the drought (US West/SW, etc.).

The Ilford method used a lot less water, especially if one is careful to use optimum flow rates for the washer. Photgraphers trying to save water (and maybe some time) are the ones most concerned with the quick wash.

That said, I live in a fairly water-rich area and do precisely what you suggest .)

Best,

Doremus

 

[Tina Kino]

You have to look for any discoloration immediately after blotting the drop of RHT. If you don’t see any discoloration immediately you’re good to go.

..wait, aren't you supposed to wait two minutes? That's what I have read everywhere when it comes to RHT / HT-2..

 

[eli griggs]

One thing I forgot to mention...In his book 'The Art of Enlarging', David Vestal recommends performing the RHT test in subdued light because the hypo test solution is actually light sensitive and may give incorrect readings. However, this may not be the cause but just a thought.

Good point to make a regular part of wash-testing routine.

Would doing so under a 30 watt sodium bulb light influence the wash results, in your opinion?

 

[Elmarc]

Good point to make a regular part of wash-testing routine.

Would doing so under a 30 watt sodium bulb light influence the wash results, in your opinion?

I don't use a 30 watt sodium bulb so I could not say for sure. I would presume that as long as the paper is not directly under the light then that should be fine.
I wash my prints in a small bathroom with a small 12x12 inch frosted window. I consider that to be subdued light depending on the time of day. I turn on the bathroom light after about two minutes to inspect the tests. This procedure has given me accurate and consistent results.
Hope that helps

 

[bernard_L]

I've been using Ilford's 5 + 10 + 5 wash method for their FB Glossy paper.

You refer to the Ilford wash method. Did you also abide by the 1 minute fix time?

 

[cirwin2010]

Adding my own two cents here. I prefer using alkaline fixers such as TF-4 for my papers. I find it washes out more easily. I found that if there is too much residual fixer in my paper before selenium toning, the selenium toner will stain the paper or create uneven splotches (very visible if the paper is backlit). TF-4 lets me be much looser with how much washing is needed before selenium toning, where a full wash or hypo clearing is required when using something like Ilford Rapid Fixer (acidic).


When using TF-4, I am comfortable washing in my print washer for an hour on its own. To conserve water and time, a hypo clearing for a few minutes with a 20-30 minute wash also seems to be sufficient. I would recommend the use hypo clear (sodium sulfite) when using acidic fixers given how difficult it can be to wash out.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

You all do realize that this thread is over a year old. Answering the OP now may be pointless. Of course, further discussion on the topic is always appropriate.

Doremus

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Out of curiosity, is the stain the same in different places on the sheet? I wonder whether the flow patterns in the vertical washer may have an effect.


Good point!

Ditto. Water temperature has a significant effect. For example, 10ºC, as it comes ou of the faucet, is too cold for thorough washing.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Most slot washers have the dividers too close together and made of slick plastic. Mine are dimpled plastic and further spaced apart. My own design slot washers are more water efficient too. But I do give fiber-based prints ample time in the washer.

Another helpful tip is go to archival fixers like TF5 or TF4. Prints not only wash faster, but this options saves a lot of time and fuss in the fixing process itself. (Don't recycle these fixers - use them fresh per instructions).

 

[Loren Sattler]

Perhaps water quality is the issue here. Hard water will not rinse fixer as quickly as soft water. Ilford probably tests with good quality (soft) water.

 

[mshchem]

Adding my own two cents here. I prefer using alkaline fixers such as TF-4 for my papers. I find it washes out more easily. I found that if there is too much residual fixer in my paper before selenium toning, the selenium toner will stain the paper or create uneven splotches (very visible if the paper is backlit). TF-4 lets me be much looser with how much washing is needed before selenium toning, where a full wash or hypo clearing is required when using something like Ilford Rapid Fixer (acidic).


When using TF-4, I am comfortable washing in my print washer for an hour on its own. To conserve water and time, a hypo clearing for a few minutes with a 20-30 minute wash also seems to be sufficient. I would recommend the use hypo clear (sodium sulfite) when using acidic fixers given how difficult it can be to wash out.

If you are getting staining your print isn't fixed adequately. Pure and simple. In fact you shouldn't see staining even if you go straight from the fixer into even strong 1+3 Selenium toner.

Skip any hardener in your acidic fixers. Alkaline fixers are great, I've never used them, but I don't doubt.

 

[mshchem]

Ditto. Water temperature has a significant effect. For example, 10ºC, as it comes ou of the faucet, is too cold for thorough washing.

Amen!!! 20-25°C is my aim point. Cold water here in winter is approximately 4-5°C, way too cold.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Did you realize the test solution is light sensitive and the entire test has to be done in the dark?
Also, are you sure this was a residual hypo test and not a residual silver test? I've seen these often confused;the former works with silver nitrate and the latter with developer or toner.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

If you are getting staining your print isn't fixed adequately. Pure and simple. In fact you shouldn't see staining even if you go straight from the fixer into even strong 1+3 Selenium toner.

Skip any hardener in your acidic fixers. Alkaline fixers are great, I've never used them, but I don't doubt.

Let's not confuse tests for residual silver, which test for adequate fixation, and tests for residual hypo (fixer = thiosulfates), which test for adequate washing. A print can be adequately fixed, but not adequately washed and vice versa.

The OP is testing for residual hypo using, I assume, the HT-2 test.

@OP: There are a number of reasons why the Ilford sequence will fail. It's really dependent on the right conditions. Temperature, fixer type (hardening or not), water hardness, the specific paper used, and, especially, carried over fixer in the second wash water, etc. will all skew the results. That's why what you are doing is so important. Test, adjust and find a regime that works well for you in your situation.

While you're at it, do the ST-1 or selenium-toner residual silver test too.

Best,

Doremus

 

[mshchem]

Let's not confuse tests for residual silver, which test for adequate fixation, and tests for residual hypo (fixer = thiosulfates), which test for adequate washing. A print can be adequately fixed, but not adequately washed and vice versa.

The OP is testing for residual hypo using, I assume, the HT-2 test.

@OP: There are a number of reasons why the Ilford sequence will fail. It's really dependent on the right conditions. Temperature, fixer type (hardening or not), water hardness, the specific paper used, and, especially, carried over fixer in the second wash water, etc. will all skew the results. That's why what you are doing is so important. Test, adjust and find a regime that works well for you in your situation.

While you're at it, do the ST-1 or selenium-toner residual silver test too.

Best,

Doremus

Yes, I'm easily confused I'll admit that I rarely do any testing, but have 50 year old prints. I'm a big believer in hypo clearing agent, 70°F wash water and agitation, usually manual. I got nothing better to do