Zorki 4K vs Leica M

Huss · Mar 13, 2021

Just got rid of my Fed 2 and Zorki 4. Traded it in at the local camera store for store credit. The reality being I was only using these cameras as a novelty. I'm lucky enough to have decent rangefinder gear which also is far more enjoyable to use.
Last one standing is my custom painted Kiev only because the store didn't put any extra value for the paint job! This one I will be selling independently. As cool as it looks (and the lens actually is super), it still is miserable to use IMO compared to decent gear.

henryvk · Mar 18, 2021

I just got another FED 5C locally for 20€.

Not much to say about it that hasn't been said: I'm sure it can't compare to a Leica M at all. However, after cleaning, relubrication and calibration it *does* work, supposedly, as intended. The viewfinder is not amazingly bright but it's decently big, the reflective framelines are reasonably helpful and the rangefinder patch offers good contrast. It doesn't give me any trouble focusing and once the rangefinder is calibrated, it's spot on as far as I can tell. I also checked the match-needle lightmeter against known good ones and the accuracy is entirely adequate for outdoors.

Here's the viewfinder:

The shutter makes a rather pleasing *tschunk*. It's neither quiet nor exceptionally loud – kind of middling, really.

Anyway, not a great beauty or a precision instrument but it takes pictures and the lens is actually pretty good, or rather, I have Japanese ones that leave a lot more to be desired.

Huss · Mar 18, 2021

henryvk said:
I just got another FED 5C locally for 20€.

Not much to say about it that hasn't been said: I'm sure it can't compare to a Leica M at all. However, after cleaning, relubrication and calibration it *does* work, supposedly, as intended. The viewfinder is not amazingly bright but it's decently big, the reflective framelines are reasonably helpful and the rangefinder patch offers good contrast. It doesn't give me any trouble focusing and once the rangefinder is calibrated, it's spot on as far as I can tell. I also checked the match-needle lightmeter against known good ones and the accuracy is entirely adequate for outdoors.

Here's the viewfinder:

The shutter makes a rather pleasing *tschunk*. It's neither quiet nor exceptionally loud – kind of middling, really.

Anyway, not a great beauty or a precision instrument but it takes pictures and the lens is actually pretty good, or rather, I have Japanese ones that leave a lot more to be desired.

20 Euro for camera and lens - you can't even buy a lens cap for a Leica with that!

henryvk · Mar 19, 2021

Huss said:
20 Euro for camera and lens - you can't even buy a lens cap for a Leica with that!

Haha, basically not, no.

Fwiw the lens is held in higher regard than the FED, which has people calling it the Industar's "very ugly rear lenscap".

Huss · Mar 19, 2021

henryvk said:
Haha, basically not, no.

Fwiw the lens is held in higher regard than the FED, which has people calling it the Industar's "very ugly rear lenscap".

I have no issue with Soviet lenses. The Jupiter 8s, Helios 103, Orion 15 that I use all are excellent.

George Mann · Aug 8, 2021

As some of you may know by now, I found a Fed 3 at a very low price (it came with a bad lense).

I am sorry to tell you guys that it appears to be a better camera than any Japanese rangefinder that I have ever handled!

I can tell you that it appears to be more solidly built, it's mechanisms are faultlessly reliable, and it's rangefinder patch is the best I have seen.

I also have a Konica S2 whose build quality is noticeably inferior!

Bikerider · Aug 8, 2021

George Mann said:
It's funny that you mention this because 36 × 100 = 3600 actuations.

My point is that even the vaunted Nikon F/F2 can be technically out of spec by the time it reaches one thousand actuations!

But highly unlikely!

Comparing a Fed/Zorki/Kiev to a Leica of any model is like comparing a surgical scalpel to a blunt kitchen knife. They will both do the job, but I know what I would prefer to use if I were to perform a medical operation.
I think Russian working weeks had more Fridays than any other days because Friday was when the workers wanted to finish early and go home and sod the quality.

zanxion72 · Aug 8, 2021

Bikerider said:
But highly unlikely!

Comparing a Fed/Zorki/Kiev to a Leica of any model is like comparing a surgical scalpel to a blunt kitchen knife. They will both do the job, but I know what I would prefer to use if I were to perform a medical operation.
I think Russian working weeks had more Fridays than any other days because Friday was when the workers wanted to finish early and go home and sod the quality.

Well said! Also, the FED 5 looks the ugliest of the bunch. Those that praise these soviet lenses, apparently have never used a Leica lens. Sumicron, even today, is used as a reference lens not by luck.

George Mann · Aug 8, 2021

zanxion72 said:
the FED 5 looks the ugliest of the bunch.

A soviet Leica M. Looks are a matter of taste. I don't have a problem with it.

zanxion72 said:
Those that praise these soviet lenses, apparently have never used a Leica lens. Sumicron, even today, is used as a reference lens not by luck.

I have a Japanese Summicron already, and I like the way that the more than perfectly adequate Industar 61L/D renders.

gone · Aug 8, 2021

Interesting comparison. The big and ugly Zorki vs the big and not ugly, but odd M5. I've owned the earlier Zorki models that looked more like Leica screwmount cameras, and if you get a good one or a CLA'd one they're a lot of fun. Personally I feel the M5 is just too big. It felt odd in my hands when I bought one ages ago. Just buy the Zorki (an earlier one, not the Frankenzorki 4) and put a clean Summar on it, w/ a collapsible 90 Summicron for portraits.

henryvk · Aug 9, 2021

Bikerider said:
Comparing a Fed/Zorki/Kiev to a Leica of any model is like comparing a surgical scalpel to a blunt kitchen knife.

To put this into perspective: it's probably safe to say that the number of surgeons out there is far eclipsed by the number of chefs.

Huss · Aug 11, 2021

Bikerider said:
But highly unlikely!

Comparing a Fed/Zorki/Kiev to a Leica of any model is like comparing a surgical scalpel to a blunt kitchen knife. They will both do the job, but I know what I would prefer to use if I were to perform a medical operation.
I think Russian working weeks had more Fridays than any other days because Friday was when the workers wanted to finish early and go home and sod the quality.

Depends what you want to use the knives for. Spreading butter? The blunt kitchen knife. Putting jam on top of that butter? The blunt kitchen knife. Splitting a warm, straight out of the oven scone, then smothering it w/ clotted cream? The blunt kitchen knife. Removing an appendix? The scalpel. But which would you rather be doing day in, day out?

Bikerider · Aug 11, 2021

zanxion72 said:
Well said! Also, the FED 5 looks the ugliest of the bunch. Those that praise these soviet lenses, apparently have never used a Leica lens. Summicron, even today, is used as a reference lens not by luck.

Back in the last century- well around the late 60's - early 70's there was a test carried out on behalf of a weekly British Photo magazine (Amateur Photographer). This test was assessing the actual resolving power of a Summicron and the results were represented by a graph. I clearly remember the graph started quite high up the edge of the chart (Graduated from 1 to 10) That was F2 as the aperture was reduced at F2.8 it was higher and at F4 it was almost at the top of the graph and the line remained horizontal right through to F16 where there was a slight dip.

I have never seen any other lens display such consistency right across the different apertures. There have been sharper lenses made by a few manufacturers, but those test graphs went up and down like a relief map of the Himalayas. Unfortunately Leitz lenses are way out of my price bracket.

henryvk · Aug 11, 2021

Bikerider said:
Back in the last century- well around the late 60's - early 70's there was a test carried out on behalf of a weekly British Photo magazine (Amateur Photographer). This test was assessing the actual resolving power of a Summicron and the results were represented by a graph. I clearly remember the graph started quite high up the edge of the chart (Graduated from 1 to 10) That was F2 as the aperture was reduced at F2.8 it was higher and at F4 it was almost at the top of the graph and the line remained horizontal right through to F16 where there was a slight dip.

That's great, really. But I still think, and this might be a somewhat controversial view, that "photography" and "poring over graphs" are largely unrelated activities.

zanxion72 · Aug 11, 2021

Bikerider said:
Back in the last century- well around the late 60's - early 70's there was a test carried out on behalf of a weekly British Photo magazine (Amateur Photographer). This test was assessing the actual resolving power of a Summicron and the results were represented by a graph. I clearly remember the graph started quite high up the edge of the chart (Graduated from 1 to 10) That was F2 as the aperture was reduced at F2.8 it was higher and at F4 it was almost at the top of the graph and the line remained horizontal right through to F16 where there was a slight dip.

I have never seen any other lens display such consistency right across the different apertures. There have been sharper lenses made by a few manufacturers, but those test graphs went up and down like a relief map of the Himalayas. Unfortunately Leitz lenses are way out of my price bracket.

Exactly!
And it is not just that. A Zorki 4k cannot simply compete to more expensive gear. I had all of the soviet stuff you can imagine (I still own a TSVVS for example), bun not one could deliver the clarity of a Leica (and other's made) glass. Also, most of my late Zorkis (4, 5K, 6) were poorly made, with speeds way off the numbers on their dials, curtain ribbons coming off, flimsy backs and many more. The rule of you get what you pay applies here (with an exception though on exaggerated pricing of several over-hyped cameras and lenses).
I love Zorki cameras, especially the early ones, but just that.

George Mann · Aug 11, 2021

Well, I began this thread with a Zorki in mind, but found the Feds to be better cameras.

I am quite happy with my Fed 3.

George Mann · Aug 11, 2021

Bikerider said:
I have never seen any other lens display such consistency right across the different apertures.

Yes. That is what separates it from even my Nikkor 50mm F2, which otherwise has identical performance between f5.6 to f11, and is not embarrassed by it at f4.

But as I never shoot my Nikkor at its widest apertures, I am quite happy with it.

Huss · Aug 11, 2021

Bikerider said:
Back in the last century- well around the late 60's - early 70's there was a test carried out on behalf of a weekly British Photo magazine (Amateur Photographer). This test was assessing the actual resolving power of a Summicron and the results were represented by a graph. I clearly remember the graph started quite high up the edge of the chart (Graduated from 1 to 10) That was F2 as the aperture was reduced at F2.8 it was higher and at F4 it was almost at the top of the graph and the line remained horizontal right through to F16 where there was a slight dip.

I have never seen any other lens display such consistency right across the different apertures. There have been sharper lenses made by a few manufacturers, but those test graphs went up and down like a relief map of the Himalayas. Unfortunately Leitz lenses are way out of my price bracket.

You'll like this then:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/comparing-rangefinder-and-slr-50mm-lenses-version-0-7/

Bikerider · Aug 12, 2021

henryvk said:
That's great, really. But I still think, and this might be a somewhat controversial view, that "photography" and "poring over graphs" are largely unrelated activities.

I cannot argue with that. The test was. as far as I remember carried out with the lens ONLY. No camera was involved. The lens was fixed to a test bed where there was absolutely no risk of vibration/shake. That all goes out of the window when it is on a camera and hand held or to some extent even on a tripod. The slightest vibration from any source will knock the edge off what it will or can resolve will fail. Then with the camera using film what happens then? What was impressive was the 'flat line' resolution from F4 onwards to just before F16

zanxion72 · Aug 12, 2021

henryvk said:
That's great, really. But I still think, and this might be a somewhat controversial view, that "photography" and "poring over graphs" are largely unrelated activities.

Yes, you are quite correct. But with soviet stuff so poorly made and so many inconsistencies in quality from unit to unit, you frequently get nasty surprises, from badly focused images due to uneven mount-to-film pane distances, to missaligned lens optics and to film advancing mechanisms that rip the film or bringing the frame off center up to the sprocket holes. Better save than sorry.

abruzzi · Aug 20, 2021

I visited Russia a couple years ago (Moscow and St. Petersburg), and figured I'd pick up a few cameras from the source. I coordinated with photrio member @alexvaras to find a Kiev IIa and have it CLA'd before I arrived. Alex was great, and the camera was awesome. The only issue I had with it was it came with an Jupiter 8, which i didn't like because the aperture dial turned smoothly, and the way I carry a camera that meant the aperture was always drifting, and I'd have to check it before every shot. When I got to St. Petersburg I got an 8M which solved all the problems. Actual in St. Petersburg I got most of the other lenses--a Jupiter 9 (85/2), Jupiter 11 (135/4), Jupiter 12 (35/2.8), a Helios 103 (50/1.8), and the multi FL turret viewfinder. All in, I'm less than $180 into the entire camera, lens, and finders. I haven't shot it a lot--maybe 20 rolls--but haven't had any issues.

OTOH, I bought a few other Zorki's and FED's, admittedly not CLA'd, but they have been much less reliable. They are almost all the early straight up Leica clones, so they have the split rangefinger/viewfinder setup which I don't want for the 50 (I deal with it wit the other lenses on the Kiev, but it is much less than ideal.) OTOH, you can tell with these old FEDs that there isn't much to the camera, compared to most other cameras I've used. I do like the size of the Zorki 2 (and all the straigh Barnak clones) thry really are tiny, bot I'd probably prefer an actual Barnak, but I've never owned one. If I had to choose one, it would be the FED2 since it upgraded the Leica design to include and integrated rangefinder, but I still have to imagine that most of the "western" manufacturers made better built cameras.

Alex Varas · Aug 20, 2021

Yes, I remember that it was a nice Kiev and the repairman was “gentlehand” a local who does very nice things with old Kievs

abruzzi · Aug 20, 2021

Yup, he did a great job, and I got some great photos of St. Petersburg with that camera. We arrived on St. Petersburg city day, and I shot TriX in the camera as probably a thousand people were standing out in the rain in the palace square in front of the Hermitage listening to opera arias. I got some exceptional shots with it. And it still shoots great!

Alex Varas · Aug 20, 2021

Glad to read all is good

Huss · Aug 20, 2021

abruzzi said:
Yup, he did a great job, and I got some great photos of St. Petersburg with that camera. We arrived on St. Petersburg city day, and I shot TriX in the camera as probably a thousand people were standing out in the rain in the palace square in front of the Hermitage listening to opera arias. I got some exceptional shots with it. And it still shoots great!

Post some pics!

Zorki 4K vs Leica M

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