your thoughts on Robert Capa, D-Day, A.D. Coleman

[jtk]

http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandpho...3/alternate-history-robert-capa-and-magnum-3/

Sad to have read this about a photo hero.

Your thoughts?

 

[jack straw]

I saw this a while ago, and my reaction is the same now—who cares. Whether or not they juiced up the story a little bit has no bearing on the photos published, not to mention the cojones needed to be on that beach just to take photos. My reaction would have been mere ambivalence had the author not come off with such an ego. Easy to take pot shots at a dead guy.

 

[pentaxuser]

An interesting article The article and comments made about the article make a good point about testing the "melted emulsion" aspect. I assume its authenticity has been questioned before and if so, I am surprised that tests haven't been run to see what happens. There may be no photo engineers from that era still alive and certainly no film left from that era but presumably there is enough in the way of documentation of tests on such film to establish the story's likely or otherwise authenticity.

As a matter of interest what does a hot liquid such as water do to emulsion? Does it "melt/damage" emulsion and if so, is it the catalyst of the hot liquid that is crucial and not heat alone?.

There is no suggestion of simple water damage from the Channel but can this be ruled out on the grounds that salt water does no harm to film?

pentaxuser

 

[Nodda Duma]

Having worked with non-hardened emulsion, I know from experience that heat is a GREAT way to melt wet, unhardened emulsion. It doesn’t take much, either.. get it a bit above room temp and let gravity do the rest.

Hardener raises the melting point of the emulsion. If it were fixed in a hardening fixer, the hardener still takes time to work. I don’t know what film was used and if it were hardened properly. Hot water washes unhardened emulsion away very easily.

The original explanation is entirely plausible, if you keep in mind the films of the 40s were not the same as modern film.

As jack straw says above, easy to take pot shots at a dead guy.

 

[jtk]

I've seen film destroyed by Arkay-like film dryers. The emulsion didn't "melt" but the film base curled into uselessness.

I have long cared deeply about Capa's work and life ... there were several fine books in English about the French in VN before America waded in. Capa didn't "oppose" but was blown up documenting it.

Here's a 571 page book that others might want..beautifully printed: https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Capa-...530100944&sr=8-1&keywords=phaidon+robert+capa

Another relevant book is Blood and Champagne, Very personal.

This link will help folks who know little about Capa other than D-Day...or know little about Magnum:

http://erickimphotography.com/blog/...-capa-has-taught-me-about-street-photography/

Also... I hated A.D. Coleman's work years ago, but many followed it. He seemed especially important to the droves of "street photographers".

 

[slackercrurster]

Isn't it all just speculation? Anything concrete on it?

 

[jtk]

The film dryer story was repeatedly printed in popular photo magazines in the 60s/70s. I think the story had a basis, but it was stupidly blamed on several specific assistants, one of whom is widely regarded as a war photographer.

It'd be good for people who claim to care about Capa to follow up with a little reading.

 

[eddie]

I wasn't aware that the story I had known was being questioned before today. I wonder if this new knowledge alters the way I view the photo. It does bring up some questions...
Is the original story of the photo's creation the reason it has become iconic?
Based on the other thread questioning the fidelity of digital photographs, is the story behind a photograph as important as the image itself ( if, in fact, the story is one of the reason for a photos fame)?

 

[pentaxuser]

So it appears that non hardened wet emulsion can be melted. You'd have thought that for the sake of his own credibility that the author would have checked this out and at least conceded it could have happened. The plain fact is that never letting truth or any element of doubt interfere with a good story certainly holds good today and probably always has.

pentaxuser

 

[Arthurwg]

I saw this a while ago, and my reaction is the same now—who cares. Whether or not they juiced up the story a little bit has no bearing on the photos published, not to mention the cojones needed to be on that beach just to take photos. My reaction would have been mere ambivalence had the author not come off with such an ego. Easy to take pot shots at a dead guy.

I have to agree. The important thing is that we have the photos, and like or not Capa is a hero. A.D. Coleman has built a career, or tried to, by stirring up trouble for several decades.

 

[Mr Bill]

Sad to have read this about a photo hero.

Your thoughts?

Well, I read the article with what I think is a reasonably open mind. Then I read the link where A.D Coleman performed tests to see if the emulsion could possibly have melted off. (He apparently thinks that the melted emulsion theory is some sort of made-up story, and that this deception is somehow favorable to the Magnum agency; I'm not clear on the exact details of how.) My takeaway is that I would not blindly trust any photographic tests/conclusions performed by A.D. Coleman. He made a lot of assumptions that I would not have made, and although he acknowledges that his setup is not the same, he still applies questionable conclusions.

To save readers some time, here's some details. He says,

"I substituted a compact 6×7-1/2″ Tatung Heat Devil II, a portable ceramic space heater that puts out 5200 BTU and reaches its set temperature within a minute. I suspect this heats up much faster, and puts out more heat, more efficiently, than whatever “heating coil” they supposedly used in London in 1944. I hung a newly soaked strip of previously developed and fixed Tri-X film from 1993 at the top of the cabinet."

So basically, he took a piece of "modern" film, 1993 Tri-X (previously processed, and now just rewetted), and he uses a modern "ceramic" space heater to produce the high temperatures.

Here are my main issues: 1) the "modern" Tri-X is most likely prehardened to a much higher extent than the circa 1944 film, so most likely is quite a bit more resistant to "high" temperatures, and 2) the modern space heater probably behaves much differently than the rigged up heating element of the old-time film dryer. For example, he says that his test setup reached a maximum temperature of about 150 deg F. The obvious reason for this limit seems to be that modern heaters operate a fan while heating, as a way to limit the temperature. (If you block the fan on a space heater, or on a hair dryer, even, a thermal cutoff will shut it off in short order, and it may be several minutes before it can be restarted.) If the old-time system simply has a heating element in a closed cabinet, I'd expect that sky-high air temperatures are possible, certainly into the hundreds of degrees F. For kicks, I stuck a thermometer above a toaster (essentially heating elements with no fan), with a pie tin propped above, and in short order the temperature was approaching 250 deg F (and it's not even in a closed box). (I stopped because the pie tin was becoming dangerously hot.) But for some unexplained reason, the author seems to assume that the old film dryer setup cannot exceed the 150 deg F of his system.

He acknowledges that there are problems with his test, saying,

"I admit this doesn’t qualify as scientific. Tri-X in 1993 isn’t identical to Super-X in 1944. I’ve no specifics on the size of the wooden clothes locker” LIFE used (though I doubt it was smaller than my cabinet). I’ve no idea what kind of “heating coil” they had in it (though I doubt it was more powerful and faster heating than my Tatung)".

Yet after a few other unconvincing (to me, anyway) arguments, here's what he says,

"So I feel confident in asserting that the emulsion of gelatin-silver film, in 1944 as today, did not and does not melt and run down its acetate backing after just a few minutes in a closed wooden cabinet heated even to 150°F by any simple, off-the-shelf heating unit. This constitutes pure fiction. High time we recognized it as such, and began to discuss the implications thereof."

Now personally I don't have any idea what temperature would melt circa 1944 film, but with modern color films, the Kodak recs are not to exceed 140 deg F in the dryer; one would not expect that another 10 deg F would melt the emulsion. As another point of comparison, the RA-4 paper processing spec is to not exceed 200 deg F in the dryer. So I'm not surprised that the author's test, at 150 deg F, failed to melt a modern Tri-X emulsion. But his test, in my opinion, has very little in common with the 1944 event, other than that film and a heater were involved.

 

[slackercrurster]

Now, I could not read only a fraction of AD's multi post blog on this D Day subject. I got ADD and his style of writing is too long winded and boring for me. I used to answer some of AD's posts at his blog, but he removed me from his mailing list and wrote me to stop writing in. Apparently he likes kiss ass 'yes men' that only agree with his ego. If anyone challenges him he wants to delete them.

But if the idea that Capa was a coward is being thrown out there, then I don't believe that is the cause of the missing films. Even a real puss would hold their camera above the boats wall and shoot blind and under cover. And Capa has proven time and again he can shoot during war right in the open.

If the real story is Capa shot the film, had sex with a spy and she shoved the film up her AD...I mean puss and escaped with it...then I believe that!

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I used to answer some of AD's posts at his blog, but he removed me from his mailing list and wrote me to stop writing in. Apparently he likes kiss ass 'yes men' that only agree with his ego. If anyone challenges him he wants to delete them.

Or maybe you did there what you have been doing all over the internet for as long as I can remember. You've been banned from lots of forums and brag about it. Maybe he thought you were just a little nuts? Can't blame him.

You and jtk are a hell of a combo. I'm sure lots of people here appreciate all the sh!t stirring you two do.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I've read tons about Capa including a couple of biographies. Frankly, the whole D-Day story never passed the sniff test to me. A.D. Coleman makes perfect sense in his long exploration of this whole fabricated story. The only real explanation was that Capa was there for a few minutes at most and high tailed it out. The blurry images IMO are not from "melting" but from camera shake. You would probably shake too. Never the less, I'd prefer to know the truth regardless of what it is than some crazy story to try to maintain Capa's reputation. You can also look at other things Capa did, like faking the "Falling Soldier" shot. It points out a dubious character. If he did that in this day and age, all of you would crucify him. Kind of ironic. A darkroom assistant ruined the film? Total b.s. There were no pictures on the rolls because he never shot the rolls....

By the way, A.D. Coleman has written quite a lot over the years about photography. Knows a lot more about it than anyone here...

If you want to know what a truly brave war photographer is, don't look at Capa. Look at Nachtwey.

 

[doughowk]

There was an interesting exchange between Judy Seigel and Coleman in Seigel's "Post-Factory Photography".. The conclusion was that Coleman is a provocateur who relished denigrating the giants of photography while promoting 2nd rate photographers (eg, Mortensen).

 

[jtk]

I've read tons about Capa including a couple of biographies. Frankly, the whole D-Day story never passed the sniff test to me. A.D. Coleman makes perfect sense in his long exploration of this whole fabricated story. The only real explanation was that Capa was there for a few minutes at most and high tailed it out. The blurry images IMO are not from "melting" but from camera shake. You would probably shake too. Never the less, I'd prefer to know the truth regardless of what it is than some crazy story to try to maintain Capa's reputation. You can also look at other things Capa did, like faking the "Falling Soldier" shot. It points out a dubious character. If he did that in this day and age, all of you would crucify him. Kind of ironic. A darkroom assistant ruined the film? Total b.s. There were no pictures on the rolls because he never shot the rolls....

By the way, A.D. Coleman has written quite a lot over the years about photography. Knows a lot more about it than anyone here...

If you want to know what a truly brave war photographer is, don't look at Capa. Look at Nachtwey.

I don't remember Nachtwey' D-Day photos.

Please post links.

I do recognize the kind of person that would question Capa's photojournalistic heroism. IMO even an instant at D-Day deserves respectful awe.

A.D. Coleman wrote and sold, way back in his day. I'd congratulate him for that but he remains a creature of a long defunct NYC niche.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I don't remember Nachtwey' D-Day photos.

Please post links.

I do recognize the kind of person that would question Capa's photojournalistic heroism. IMO even an instant at D-Day deserves respectful awe.

A.D. Coleman wrote and sold, way back in his day. I'd congratulate him for that but he remains a creature of a long defunct NYC niche.

The real heroes of D-Day are not the photographers like Capa who took a few pictures then ran, which is EXACTLY what he did. They are the people who carried the guns and fought. Get that through your thick skull. Compared to them, Capa was a pansy. Capa was all about bravado. Not sure he earned the reputation he had. Faking pictures, taking credit for Taro's images. He was a piece of work.

If you want to know about Nachtwey, watch "War Photographer". Get yourself an education.

I find it funny that you "recognize the kind of person" when you should recognize your own stupidity at believing something that isn't true. You want to believe it. I get that. But it ain't so.

You really have become a tiresome bore jtk.

 

[AgX]

So it appears that non hardened wet emulsion can be melted.

Ever thought of how film is made?

Easy melting is one of the main features of gelatin to be used in filmmaking.

 

[Mr Flibble]

"Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum" - Gregory Boyington

 

[jtk]

"Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum" - Gregory Boyington

Especially appropriate post. Pappy Boyington's memory is, like Capa's, "not without controversy."

http://www.pappyboyingtonfield.com/pappy.htm

Capa wasn't a "nice guy" and didn't wow soft collegiate audiences, but he did show up, making some memorable images in godawful situations and did get blown up doing it.

I apologize for dragging A.D. Coleman back up from the grave.

 

[pentaxuser]

Ever thought of how film is made?

Easy melting is one of the main features of gelatin to be used in filmmaking.

Thanks, the evidence from your post and Mr Bill's post would seem to be mounting that melted emulsion is perfectly possible. I fear this thread is very quickly becoming one of very "black and white" views. Once we lose any spirit of inquiry and the allowance for there being reasonable doubt we seem doomed to attack each other . I can see another "lock" coming if this thread continues in this way. Pity

pentaxuser

 

[Mr Bill]

Thanks, the evidence from your post and Mr Bill's post would seem to be mounting that melted emulsion is perfectly possible.

Hi, to be clear I did not make the case that emulsion was melted. Bur rather that the referred author did NOT make a convincing argument against this.

Fwiw, I remember as a kid many times when my father was projecting 8mm family movies that if the film were to stall (lost the "loop," or whatever) while the projection lamp was on, that within a second or two blisters would begin forming and a clear spot would form in the center of the image. So emulsion melting from simply very strong light was possible.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Mr Bill. I was trying to convey my feeling that melted emulsion was possible in one sentence and in so doing should have been clearer that you case was that the author did not make a convincing argument against the possibility against there being any chance that melting could have occurred.

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

One should think a drying cabinet would be constructed that way, that too high temperatures cannot be reached.

But:..
-) it may be defective

-) especially in professional environments high-speed drying was done. In this case the film was extra hardened during processing and dried at higher temperature than standard. In such situations a drying chamber has do be used that enables setting higher temperatures than normal.