Yet another wrapper offset question - BUT DIFFERENT!

Dusty Negative · Sep 8, 2020

I seem to now CONSISTENTLY be getting wrapper offset issues on 120 film. This makes me wonder "if it's me, not you." I have a few theories:

1. It has something to do with red-sensitive film just being more prone to wrapper offset (I was getting the offset on Rollei Retro 80s, so I switched to Ilford SFX. Now I'm getting it with Ilford). And, then:
2. It has something to do with how I am cold storing the film and then warming it up. Perhaps I am not letting it warm up adequately before shooting? Or should I stop storing it in my fridge altogether? Is that a thing?

I cannot really think what else is causing this. I shoot Tri-X and Ultrafine Extreme, and have never had this issue (well, with the spottiness).

I develop in temperature-controlled water. It's tap, but, again, I'm not seeing this problem with other films.

Here's the pic. Look at the darker mids/shadows right above her shoulder:

What's a poor novice film photographer to do? Given the time and money invested and spent on film, camera, darkroom, etc., this constant waste of film and time is getting very frustrating.

MattKing · Sep 8, 2020

This may be just good, old fashioned condensation, which isn't necessarily a wrapper offset problem.
Is the film within date?
I would try it without the refrigeration.
And the standard question, is this visible on the negatives themselves when you examine them visually under magnification?

BrianShaw · Sep 8, 2020

I can’t advise on that and didn’t really notice until you mentioned it. Stunning portrait... “defect” and all.

Dusty Negative · Sep 8, 2020

MattKing said:
This may be just good, old fashioned condensation, which isn't necessarily a wrapper offset problem.

OK, but what is the practical solution? When you say try without refrigeration, do you mean *never* refrigerate it, or only use it hours (days?) after taking it out of the fridge?

And, why would condensation only affect that particular exposure portion??

Thank you for responding.

Dusty Negative · Sep 8, 2020

BrianShaw said:
I can’t advise on that and didn’t really notice until you mentioned it. Stunning portrait... “defect” and all.

Thank you, but it's one of those things I can't unsee.

mshchem · Sep 8, 2020

I can't see it. I refrigerate everything. For 120, in my refrigerator, not freezer, I put the sealed roll in my pants pocket for 5 minutes. I load magazines and cameras in air conditioner

Dusty Negative · Sep 8, 2020

OK, did some searching and found this:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/thawing-and-refreezing-film.175442/#post-2283815

But...why???

winger · Sep 8, 2020

If you mean the dark dots just above her shoulder, those look to me more like condensation or maybe even dust during the exposure (which blocks that spot from being exposed, so it's then dark in the print). Condensation doesn't always cover an entire frame. Water will try to stay together (surface tension, etc..) so may form micro-drops - I don't know for sure, admittedly.

Wrapper offset will look like numbers and letters from the backing paper.

When I use film that's been frozen, I let it sit a day before I open the foil wrapper. Most of the time, I don't freeze it anymore. I try to buy in small enough amounts that it doesn't sit around too long after the expiration date (and even then, I haven't had issues).

cmacd123 · Sep 8, 2020

stick your refrigerated film in a freezer bag with as little air as possible before you take it out of the fridge, and leave it sealed in the freezer bag for 24 hours or more at room temperature before opening the bag...

mshchem · Sep 8, 2020

Load in air conditioned areas .

mshchem · Sep 8, 2020

It's the scanner. A exemplary reason for contact proofing. I don't know what it actually is but the most informative way to evaluate your photos is a good contact sheet. Nothing in the way. (Unless you have crud on your film, contact printer, lint from your shirt, dandruff, dead skin, static flashes...This is why I shave my head and work au naturel . )

Dusty Negative · Sep 8, 2020

mshchem said:
This is why I shave my head and work au naturel . )

As long as your clients are good with it, why not?

reddesert · Sep 8, 2020

Dusty Negative said:
OK, did some searching and found this:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/thawing-and-refreezing-film.175442/#post-2283815

But...why???

If you're asking why 120 in particular should be refrigerated in a sealed wrapper, it's likely because it's wrapped tightly against the backing paper, offering opportunities for condensation damage.

Don't go crazy with film refrigeration. It only needs to be in there if you're going to store it for a long time. You can leave film at room temp for weeks or months (or probably a few years) without problems, unless you live in an extreme tropical environment where dehumidified storage may help. Don't take the film directly out of the fridge and unwrap it before it reaches room temp - that's a great way to get condensation, like a chilled beer glass. Don't keep taking film out of the fridge and putting it back in.

MattKing · Sep 8, 2020

winger said:
Wrapper offset will look like numbers and letters from the backing paper.

Well, it can also manifest itself as mottling and other changes of texture in the image.
Roughly speaking, it occurs when there is a chemical reaction in the film emulsion caused by an interaction with the backing paper and/or the printing on it.

Pieter12 · Sep 8, 2020

I never refrigerate black and white film. But then I usually shoot it within a few months of purchase. I don't let it get too hot, though, carrying it in an insulated bag when possible.

BrianShaw · Sep 8, 2020

Did any other frames exhibit this issue?

mshchem · Sep 8, 2020

Dusty Negative said:
As long as your clients are good with it, why not?

When I'm making contact prints!

Seriously, Kodak publications going back years have recommended warm up times etc. I have always kept film in a fridge, and since it's become necessary to mail order film, I buy film in the cooler months. Kodak in the good old days had a professional dealer network setup, when film was shipped it was kept cold. I remember point of sale signs that in effect said " limit 50 F" looked like a speed limit sign. My old friend who's closing the doors on the shop still, and always has, kept a fridge on the sales floor with the professional color films. Treat film like eggs or butter. Wonderful stuff film.

Dusty Negative · Sep 9, 2020

BrianShaw said:
Did any other frames exhibit this issue?

Yes, in the same tonal area. I’ve had similar results with Rollei Retro 80s in 120, and blamed offset. My MO with both, though, is the same as far as short warm-up times. I will try a 24-hour acclimatization period from now on on see if that makes a difference. I just find it strange that I’ve never had this issue (splotchy shadows/darker mids) with Tri-X or Ultrafine or HP5. Only the extended red films.

Dusty Negative · Sep 9, 2020

mshchem said:
Wonderful stuff film.

Wonderful, yes. And finicky, fleeting, as well!

pentaxuser · Sep 9, 2020

I could be wrong, Dusty Negative but I think Brian means other frames on this particular film where you have shown us the one of the portrait Like a few others here I have looked very carefully in the general area you describe and can see nothing.

Can you say exactly what it is you see and arrow it with a circle

Thanks

pentaxuser

removedacct1 · Sep 9, 2020

This is why I stopped refrigerating my film three years ago.

Dusty Negative · Sep 9, 2020

paulbarden said:
This is why I stopped refrigerating my film three years ago.

I fear your decision was warranted. I’ve got a not inconsequential amount of film sitting in my fridge.

removedacct1 · Sep 9, 2020

Dusty Negative said:
I fear your decision was warranted. I’ve got a not inconsequential amount of film sitting in my fridge.

Let’s just say that I’ve witnessed no undesirable outcome from my decision. I’m working through various films in different formats, some of which are three years past their “use by” date. I see no changes in the performance of any of these films.

pentaxuser · Sep 9, 2020

So is the conclusion that refrigeration( not freezing) of 120 is a mistake. It confers no advantage and does confer the disadvantage of giving what Dusty Negative says he has?

The routine of bringing the film up to room temp before loading does not work at worse or at best is risky. All other possibilities as causes have been eliminated?

I'd like to see what these marks are if possible and it would appear that others may not see them either. However if Dusty has got an answer that he thinks is right then that's fine

I hope he is right. If he is then we all need to reconsider the practice of film refrigeration it would seem.

I seem to recall a discussion, a few years ago admittedly, when someone and that someone was backed up by others who said that if he bought a film in a shop he found it a sign of customer care if there was evidence that the bulk of the shop's film stock was in a fridge

Is this what they call "full circle" where previous consensus is turned on its head

I wonder what film shops do in Summer in the likes of Arizona where even a shady shelf which is never in direst sun might have a high temperature around it. Air conditioning?

pentaxuser

beemermark · Sep 9, 2020

Never read so much bogus information from internet users. All professional film used to be refrigerated from manufacturing to sale
https://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5202.shtml#SEC841

Yet another wrapper offset question - BUT DIFFERENT!

Dusty Negative

MattKing

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BrianShaw

Dusty Negative

Dusty Negative

mshchem

Dusty Negative

winger

cmacd123

mshchem

mshchem

Dusty Negative

reddesert

MattKing

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Pieter12

BrianShaw

mshchem

Dusty Negative

Dusty Negative

pentaxuser

removedacct1

Dusty Negative

removedacct1

pentaxuser

beemermark

Yet another wrapper offset question - BUT DIFFERENT!

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