Yellow staining after selenium toned prints dried

[xwinus]

Hello,

I’m having issues with selenium toning and can’t discover what I’m doing wrong. Currently I’m using Ilford FB MG paper and processing is following:

- 2min Ilford MG developer
- 1min Ilfostop
- 1min Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4 first bath
- 1min Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4 second bath

then into holding tray with plain water and once all prints are ready, I continue with

- 2min Ilford Selenium toner 1+20
- quick rinse, HCA + about hour washing

Wet prints looks fine, but after they dry, yellow staining appears across the print, mainly in light areas. It’s super obvious when light is shined through. Untoned prints are just fine. Do you have any ideas what could I be doing wrong?

 

[john_s]

Staining mostly in the light areas of the print suggest inadequate fixing, because that's the part of the print where fixing does the most work in removing undeveloped silver. Toning tends to accentuate anything that's gone wrong in previous stages.

How fresh were both fixer baths?

Another thought: sometimes it is found that acid from the fixer causes staining by the selenium toner, but others report no problem. A test would be an alkaline bath after fixing before toning, or a longer wash after fixing. Or a neutral, not necessarily alkaline, fixer, but I don't want to start a fixer pH war among the contributors here.

 

[xwinus]

Staining mostly in the light areas of the print suggest inadequate fixing, because that's the part of the print where fixing does the most work in removing undeveloped silver. Toning tends to accentuate anything that's gone wrong in previous stages.

How fresh were both fixer baths?

Both baths were freshly mixed, and I tried that twice with different prints. I’m aware of this risk so I wanted to exclude any possibility of exhausted fixer. Is it possible that the staining is cause by some fixer leftovers in the toner? I found various different opinions like that you have to do full wash before toning OR go straight from fix #2 while skipping any wash (claiming that partial wash might cause it), but I’m not sure if that’s my issue.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Both baths were freshly mixed, and I tried that twice with different prints. I’m aware of this risk so I wanted to exclude any possibility of exhausted fixer. Is it possible that the staining is cause by some fixer leftovers in the toner? I found various different opinions like that you have to do full wash before toning OR go straight from fix #2 while skipping any wash (claiming that partial wash might cause it), but I’m not sure if that’s my issue.

I agree that somewhere in the processing, undeveloped silver must be left. Since two-bath fixing is already used, one of those baths must be close to be exhausted.

 

[xwinus]

I agree that somewhere in the processing, undeveloped silver must be left. Since two-bath fixing is already used, one of those baths must be close to be exhausted.

I would normally suspect that as well, but both baths were freshly mixed before the session and no more that six 8x10 inch papers were fixed in total of 2 litres of fixer (one litre per bath), that should be plenty of fixer capacity.

 

[john_s]

It's quite a strong fixer. Maybe there's still too much acid in the print when it's placed in the toner. Try an alkaline bath before toning.

But I still think that the fact that it's worse in pale areas, means that fixing is incomplete sufficiently for toning.

 

[JensH]

Fixer (...)

then into holding tray with plain water and once all prints are ready, I continue

Hi,

imo here is the problem:
I always do selenium toning with fully washed prints, no problems like yours with any FB paper incl. Ilford MGW or Galerie.

Jens

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi,

imo here is the problem:
I always do selenium toning with fully washed prints, no problems like yours with any FB paper incl. Ilford MGW or Galerie.

Jens

I think you've got a point there.

 

[MattKing]

IIRC, the other approach is to go straight from the fixer to the toner, with no intervening rinse.
That will decrease the amount of use you get from your toner though - which itself has fixer in it.

 

[Bill Burk]

Wash for an hour and let me know how it goes. I haven’t toned in a while because of staining. But the least stained were after an hour washing.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Wash for an hour and let me know how it goes. I haven’t toned in a while because of staining. But the least stained were after an hour washing.

a complete wash before toning is indeed suggested but,I thought the OP did that?

 

[koraks]

As mentioned above - try washing the prints a little better before toning them. A 10-minute wash with a couple of changes of water will probably already resolve the problem.

 

[xwinus]

a complete wash before toning is indeed suggested but,I thought the OP did that?

I did not full wash actually as I thought I don’t have to, given that some folks go straight from fix #2 to selenium. So they were just hold in tray with still water untiĺ all were ready to tone, probably ranging from 10-30 minutes, without much movement.

 

[koraks]

I did not full wash actually as I thought I don’t have to, given that some folks go straight from fix #2 to selenium. So they were just hold in tray with still water untiĺ all were ready to tone, probably ranging from 10-30 minutes, without much movement.

If a print goes from fix straight into toner, the fixer will generally have had only 1-2 minutes to find its way into the paper base. If you hold your prints during a session in a holding tray that's basically a very dilute fixer, the fixer/silver compounds have plenty of time to soak into the fiber base and embed themselves there. This may explain why going from fixer straight to toner and then to wash will actually work better than having a holding tray in-between.

Either way, it's best to first wash the prints after fixing so you get rid of most of the silver/fixer compounds, then tone, then do the final wash.

 

[snusmumriken]

Hi,

imo here is the problem:
I always do selenium toning with fully washed prints, no problems like yours with any FB paper incl. Ilford MGW or Galerie.

Jens

+1. This is what cured the problem for me. My guess as to what’s happening (which may be total superstition, of course) is that you have wash out the silver compounds created by the fixer, otherwise they react with the toner and become stuck in situ. Two fixer baths is definitely advantageous, but I also try to give FB prints a full minute in acetic acid stop bath before fixing.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

I found that going from fix to toner requires really fresh fixer. Any itty-bitty-bit of silver in the fixer bath and it's stain city.

 

[JensH]

+1. This is what cured the problem for me. My guess as to what’s happening (which may be total superstition, of course) is that you have wash out the silver compounds created by the fixer, otherwise they react with the toner and become stuck in situ. Two fixer baths is definitely advantageous, but I also try to give FB prints a full minute in acetic acid stop bath before fixing.

Hi,

yes, that's my guess, too. The silver/hypo complex is not removed enorgh...
I use a stopp bath, too. Then 1 minute Hypam (or similar) 1+4 and the Ilford washing routine (5 min rinse, 15 min Ilford Washaid, 5-15 min rinse).
Then prints are dried and toned in a seperate session...

Jens

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I did not full wash actually as I thought I don’t have to, given that some folks go straight from fix #2 to selenium. So they were just hold in tray with still water untiĺ all were ready to tone, probably ranging from 10-30 minutes, without much movement.

in that case post#12 would indeed help, most likely.

 

[darkroommike]

There are two completely different work flows (hate that term) that work for me, using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner.
Conventional, archival process, wash the heck (and the fixer) out and then tone, refix (yes, refix), HCA and wash the hell (and the fix) out again.
Two, take a print directly out of fixer two and plop it in the selenium toner without draining or rinsing, tone, rinse, HCA, archival wash.

Both KRST and the Ilford Selenium toner contain Ammonium Thiosulfate, (spelling freaks the Ilford stuff uses Ammonium Thiosulphate the Kodak uses Ammonium Thiosulfate).

That's right, your toner has fixer in it.

 

[koraks]

That's right, your toner has fixer in it.

Which is why fixing after selenium toning is not necessary. Although arguably, the concentration of thiosulfate may end up so low in a reused Se-toner that it may cease to be sufficiently effective. Still, even with re-used toner, I've never seen any need for fixing after Se-toning. Develop, stop, fix, holding tray, wash of >2 cycles and at least a few minutes, Se-toner, archival wash. This has always worked fine for me.

 

[MattKing]

Which is why fixing after selenium toning is not necessary. Although arguably, the concentration of thiosulfate may end up so low in a reused Se-toner that it may cease to be sufficiently effective. Still, even with re-used toner, I've never seen any need for fixing after Se-toning. Develop, stop, fix, holding tray, wash of >2 cycles and at least a few minutes, Se-toner, archival wash. This has always worked fine for me.

Some of us do split toning with selenium - intentionally limiting the amount of toning in each of the toners used.
In most cases, at least one of the toners is part of a bleach and re-develop routine.
I always fix at the end of toning if any bleach and re-develop is involved - in order to be sure there isn't any undeveloped silver-halide left.
In most cases, it probably is not necessary, but I'm particularly careful of these things.

 

[George Collier]

Describe your washing method. It could be anything from open trays with sloshing of fresh water to an archival washer with prints separated.

 

[Vaughn]

There are two completely different work flows (hate that term) that work for me, using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner.
Conventional, archival process, wash the heck (and the fixer) out and then tone, refix (yes, refix), HCA and wash the hell (and the fix) out again.
Two, take a print directly out of fixer two and plop it in the selenium toner without draining or rinsing, tone, rinse, HCA, archival wash.

...

I always did Convention #1 (Portiga Rapid and Gallerie papers)...never any staining unless I messed up the original fixing/washing.

I would make several images over a period of time and then would selenium tone (1:16 @ ~100F) the keepers. A good pre-soak of the dry prints in warm water before toning. (prints were 16x20). Prints went from toner to to a tray of HCA ('cause there's fixer in the toner), then washed. This process was taught to me by Thomas Cooper decades ago.

The Portiga Rapid got exactly 30 seconds in the toning bath before being placed in HCA, then washed. This insured consistent print color (a rich red-brown). Too long in the toner got an ugly (for my work) purple color.

I have read on the Kodak package instructions that one needed fix after toning was sepia toner...my understanding it was to re-harden the emulsion soften by the toning. I never re-fixed.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Hi,

imo here is the problem:
I always do selenium toning with fully washed prints, no problems like yours with any FB paper incl. Ilford MGW or Galerie.

Jens

IIRC, the other approach is to go straight from the fixer to the toner, with no intervening rinse.
That will decrease the amount of use you get from your toner though - which itself has fixer in it.

I found that going from fix to toner requires really fresh fixer. Any itty-bitty-bit of silver in the fixer bath and it's stain city.

Two things cause staining in cases like this. One is inadequate fixation. The other, (and likely here) is going from a too-acid solution directly into the selenium toner.

I doubt that fixation is inadequate with two fresh baths of rapid fixer. Nor is the second bath anywhere near exhausted with a two-bath regime and just a few prints run through it.

However, Ilford Rapid Fixer is acidic, and at the 1+4 dilution, likely too acidic for your toner.

Try using your fixer 1+9, extend your fixing time to 2-2.5 minutes per bath and then transfer directly from bath two to your selenium toner (do give your prints a good drain first), and see if that doesn't solve your issues.

This is what I do, and have done for years. No staining whatsoever.

The other alternative is to give your prints a complete wash before toning. If they stain then, that's a sign your fixation was inadequate (selenium toner makes a good test reagent for testing residual silver).

So, make sure your fixer is fresh and you aren't overusing it (35-40 8x10-inch prints for a liter of bath one is about the limit).

If you suspect you are underfixing, wash a print thoroughly before toning. If it still stains, the fixation was inadequate. Find and fix that problem.

If all is well, then the acidity of the fixer when transferring directly to the toner is the problem. Use more dilute fixer at longer times or switch to a neutral/alkaline fixer.

Best,

Doremus

 

[GregY]

Like many others here, I only tone fully washed prints. For exhibition or sale prints I take my time and doing any selective bleaching before toning. As a result most often toning isn't a part of the initial printing sequence. Because of the unforgiving nature of bleaching, if i have just finished a long printing session, I'll even let prints dry, then evaluate them for selective bleaching and after than, finally tone them.