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XTOL German version translation help, please

tkamiya

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I just downloaded the German version of XTOL documentation. Can someone help me translate this, so I would use the right table for development time?

My only confusion is the difference between these two phrases:
TABELLE 1.1: Entwicklung in der Dose mit unverdünntem Entwickler
TABELLE 4: Entwicklung in der Schale mit unverdünntem Entwickler

Google translator translates the first one as "CAN" and the second one as "BOWL"

Which one is small tank and which one is tray? My guess would be the first one being tank and the second one being tray but I really don't trust automated translators.

Dilution exceeding 1:1 is only available in Eurpean documentations. That's why I'm doing this.
 
Actually, you can still get a pdf of the 1998 edition of J109 (english) tech pub from here. Mind you, some films have changed since then, so it might not be very useful.
 
Dhank you very much
 
Tabelle 1.1: development in small tank with undiluted developer.
Tabelle 4: developmet in tray with undiluted developer.
 
Thank you very much.

I seem to have more problems. Now knowing what these German words mean, I am comparing the chart with the US version of the note, J-109. Comparing 1:1 dilution, the numbers actually do not mach. For example, according to J-109, T-max 400 at 20C using 1:1 is to be developed for 9 1/4 minutes. Using the German version, the same condition is said to take 9.75. Similar discrepancy exists for 21C as well. 24C is identical and 27C is missing from the US version.

Hum... I know the formulation for Tmax-400 has changed about a year ago. Maybe one of the docs is not written for the latest iteration of the film....
 
tkamiya said:
...Hum... I know the formulation for Tmax-400 has changed about a year ago. Maybe one of the docs is not written for the latest iteration of the film....
Click to expand...

None of these editions have times relevant for TMY2!
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
 
Oh, and it seems you didn't look at the correct columns. The times are the same at both editions, but change between 135/120. Anyway, apart from films that haven't changed, you can only get a rough estimation about how much you need to increase development for dilutions beyond 1+1.
 
Anon,

I see for 120 format, the time match on 1:1 dilution. For 135, they don't... In US version, both versions are combined but in German, they are different. I guess, it boils down to the fact these numbers are just starting point, but when official documentations differ on time, I guess I really have to experiment.
 
I'm looking at page 15 at the US edition (table 3) and page 10 (table 2.2) at the German edition. I checked the times for 135 in both editions and they are the same. Times for 120 are the same too.
 
tkamiya said:
To make the matter more confusing, I went to Kodak's Japanese site and looked at the same document:

http://wwwjp.kodak.com/JP/plugins/acrobat/ja/professional/products/films/BWF_Chemicals.pdf
See page 8, left side for small tank.
Click to expand...
Forget about it, that's a 2002 edition. It's outdated too.

tkamiya said:
The chart does not match either English or German versions. Part of the confusion appears to be the temperature scale at the top of the charts aren't the same.
Click to expand...
Well, all of my confusion was trying to understand what these glyphs mean. Needless to say, I failed miserably.
 
What film? What E.I.? What type of tank & agitation? Or did I miss that in the beginning. I use the German table for rotary processing & 1:3 dilution for the first roll or sheets of a particular film. Then I usually reduce the times a bit. Also note that in the summer the developer heats up 4-5 degrees F during development. I adjust for that as well.

For TMY-2 4x5 film, I started with the Tmax 100 time. I reduced a bit from there and my negatives look fine. Not densitometer precise fine, but eyeball and scanned fine.
 
I am mainly interested in Tmax 400, 35mm, EI 400, small daylight tank. By comparing figures in English version, Japanese version, and German version, the numbers are all over the place. For example, I get 3.5 to 5.25 minutes at 24C. I don't know about the German version but I got English and Japanese version directly from Kodak's website. (and I can read Japanese)

I just e-mailed Kodak tech support for clarifications. I know this is only a guide but the variation is a bit too much to be a guide at some temperatures. I am *guessing* the variation comes from the fact the formulation was changed at one point and not all languages have the updated version, and/or translation errors, and/or confusion over the temperature scale (not all are the same).

I will report back when I get some response.
 
Kodak published all new numbers for Xtol 1:1 when they released TMY-2. Since then, several folks advised me to start with the Tmax 100 times. They are very close.

Sandy King tested 4x5 TMY-2 at 400 and developed in D-76 1:1 for 10 minutes. Another data point. John Sexton published a D-76 time on the internet. I don't recall what ti was. GOOGLE knows.

Tell us what your data points are when you have them. We'll add them to the pile.
 
On Kodak's german site there is no XTOL-manual in German.

Only a pdf with an english version (J-109).

I have got the (somewhat older) german version in my archive, but no link.
 
Here is the Kodak technical publication for the new TMY2 if that is the question, and Xtol is covered in the developers:http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4043/f4043.pdf In practical use, I found that my times for the new TMY Xtol needed to be increased by 6% for Jobo processing. Remember to convert all times to seconds when figuring the new time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you, Tim. I've known about F-4043 and I have it printed right here on my side. It seems Kodak has multiple documentations on its web pages and not all of them are about the same TMY version. Actually, timing data are all over the place depending on country. I've e-mailed Kodak for clarifications. Hopefully I get a reply soon. I will post what I hear...

Thank you again for your comment.
 
Here's a reply from Kodak tech support...

In my e-mail to them, I pointed out that development time for T-max film at 24C is inconsistent among various documents. (3.5 to 5.25 minutes depending on which one you read...)

"The starting point development time for the NEW Kodak Professional T-Max 400 Film, processed in a small tank at 24C, is 5 1/4 minutes."
 
I've been collecting tech documents on my website, mainly Kodak, but also Fuji, Polaroid, and Ilford, for exactly this reason. Old versions of the documents go away, and it's interesting to have some of the info still available. I think I have 4 versions of the XTOL document right now - the current one, the 1998 and 2004 US ones, and the 2001 German one. If anyone has any other pertinent documents that I should stash, let me know, it would be really appreciated.
 
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