"XTOL clone" for Europeans

Jockos · Mar 5, 2017

Hi all,

I'd like to mix my own ascorbate developer for 400ISO films. I'll make caffenol for the medium speed ones (ISO 100), but since it's pretty dark up here in Scandinavia, I'm going to need a developer that can give box speed as well.

I know there are several XTOL-like developers one can make at home, and I'm wondering which one's good for Europeans, considering restrictions on chemicals.

What does other people around here use?
What's better for me, considering I've got the ingredients for caffenol C H available already (sodium carbonate, ascorbate, KBr)?

I know there is a lot of emotion involved in developers, but I hope we can keep the discussion civilized and focused on non commercial developers and Europe.

Thanks!

FujiLove · Mar 5, 2017

Hello - I can't advise you on an XTOL recipe, but if you're having trouble sourcing chemicals, give eBay a try. I had lots of problems last year trying to find dry chemicals in the UK for reverse processing B&W film and gave up with normal UK suppliers. The chemicals were however easy to source on eBay from sellers in Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania etc. and also good value.

Jockos · Mar 5, 2017

Great advice, that's where I got the ascorbate and KBr!

Right now I'm thinking PC-Glycol, seems to be very much like XTOL, and very simple to make as well!

ruilourosa · Mar 5, 2017

mytol: check the formula online

Jockos · Mar 5, 2017

ruilourosa said:
mytol: check the formula online

Is that really the best solution, considering the price of sodium sulfite in Europe?

michaelfoto · Mar 5, 2017

Why bother fiddling with seperate chemicals unless thats what you like.
Xtol is quite cheap and you can buy it from MacoDirect in Germany at a fair price for 5 litres of stock solution. If you make an order with films and other stuff, the freight will not be frightening either.
https://www.macodirect.de/chemie/sc...ler/kodak-xtol-sw-filmentwickler-fuer-5l?c=29

Michael, living in Denmark.

Rudeofus · Mar 5, 2017

If you really want to mix your own stuff, AND want to reach full film speed, then you have to get at least Phenidone or Dimezone-S, and your local pharmacy won't have that. There are some photo chem supply stores in Germany or UK which sell most products you will ever need for home brewing. Try Suvatlar or Silverprint, for instance.

I used Ryuji Suzuki's DS-10 for a while and were quite happy with it for Tri-X. Since Ryuji's web pages related to analog photography went offline a while back, there are only copies of his formula available online, like his DS-10 formula (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Generally, Ascorbate based developers are a bit difficult to store for extended periods, so if you don't want to mix stuff every time you have an exposed roll, you should look at (there was a url link here which no longer exists). If full film speed is of paramount importance to you, you should also look at Microphen (or ID-68 which is said to be close) and Crawley's FX-11.

Alan Johnson · Mar 5, 2017

I have made up ,nearly, the real Xtol formula given in the patent and in the Film Developing Cookbook. However I don't think it is possible to buy DTPA in Europe so it's not possible to mix the exact formula.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 5, 2017

Jockos said:
Hi all,

I'd like to mix my own ascorbate developer for 400ISO films. I'll make caffenol for the medium speed ones (ISO 100), but since it's pretty dark up here in Scandinavia, I'm going to need a developer that can give box speed as well.

I know there are several XTOL-like developers one can make at home, and I'm wondering which one's good for Europeans, considering restrictions on chemicals.

What does other people around here use?
What's better for me, considering I've got the ingredients for caffenol C H available already (sodium carbonate, ascorbate, KBr)?

I know there is a lot of emotion involved in developers, but I hope we can keep the discussion civilized and focused on non commercial developers and Europe.

Thanks!

There are a couple of recipes(formulae) in the film development cookbook for that

Jockos · Mar 5, 2017

Rudeofus said:
If you really want to mix your own stuff, AND want to reach full film speed, then you have to get at least Phenidone or Dimezone-S, and your local pharmacy won't have that. There are some photo chem supply stores in Germany or UK which sell most products you will ever need for home brewing. Try Suvatlar or Silverprint, for instance.

I used Ryuji Suzuki's DS-10 for a while and were quite happy with it for Tri-X. Since Ryuji's web pages related to analog photography went offline a while back, there are only copies of his formula available online, like his DS-10 formula (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Generally, Ascorbate based developers are a bit difficult to store for extended periods, so if you don't want to mix stuff every time you have an exposed roll, you should look at (there was a url link here which no longer exists). If full film speed is of paramount importance to you, you should also look at Microphen (or ID-68 which is said to be close) and Crawley's FX-11.

I'm getting phenidone for sure, but the sodium sulfite seems to be quite expensive, and I think all the recipies you posted require it in hefty amounts. I don't think those developers are economically sound in the EU.

Jockos · Mar 5, 2017

RalphLambrecht said:
There are a couple of recipes(formulae) in the film development cookbook for that

I'm sure there is, would you like to discuss any of them in regard to cost and availability in Europe?

Alan Johnson · Mar 5, 2017

Sodium sulfite has effects on the developed image with Xtol.
1. It dissolves silver from the developing grains then reprecipitates it uniformly causing the grains to be finer.
2. It uncovers the latent image specks and allows them to be developed ,this results in a higher effective film speed.
So if the sodium sulfite is omitted the developer can hardly be called an Xtol clone.

Jockos · Mar 5, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
Sodium sulfite has effects on the developed image with Xtol.
1. It dissolves silver from the developing grains then reprecipitates it uniformly causing the grains to be finer.
2. It uncovers the latent image specks and allows them to be developed ,this results in a higher effective film speed.
So if the sodium sulfite is omitted the developer can hardly be called an Xtol clone.

Well, if you read the whole post and not just the topic header, I did ask for a XTOL like developer, rather than a 1:1 XTOL clone, and in that definition I'd say most ascorbate/phenidone developers fit.

Let's point the discussion that way instead of discussing semantics please

Rudeofus · Mar 5, 2017

I have said this on another occasion like this: you can argue about all kinds of ingredients, but Sodium Sulfite is a sine qua non. If you can not find a decent and cheap source of Sodium Sulfite in Stockholm, then get prepackaged DD-X, Microphen or whatever and be done with it. There is no way that shipping a compound, that is used in 50-100 g/l quantities in single shot developers can ever be cost efficient, regardless of what it costs at the source. As a reference: I pay 4 Euros per kg for Sodium Sulfite from a chem supplier pharmacy in my home town, that's about what you should be paying for this. And no, there is no speed preserving developer recipe out there which does not use copious amounts of Sodium Sulfite.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 5, 2017

For those in the EU who have problems with sodium sulfite availability/price you can use the food grade. It is commonly used as a preservative. Try companies that deal with restaurants or deal with food canning supplies, etc.

You can always mix Geoffrey Crawley's FX-55 which gets around the storage problem as the developing agents are added to the working solution just before use. No need for chelating agents. See below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX-55_(film_developer)

As a plus it uses much less sulfite than do the Xtol clones.

albada · Mar 5, 2017

Rudeofus said:
I pay 4 Euros per kg for Sodium Sulfite from a chem supplier pharmacy in my home town...

In Europe, would Potassium Sulfite be cheaper? It also has the advantage of permitting stock solution to be more concentrated. However, other chemicals would probably need to be tweaked in a formula to adjust pH.

Mark Overton

Alan Johnson · Mar 5, 2017

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

RSalles · Mar 5, 2017

There is some packs at the local *bay website here in Brazil which sells sodium sulphite as:
1Kg : 4.23EU
25Kg = 68.9 EU

I think you'll get a good price in Russia also, as you're in Norway that's not that far,

Cheers,

Renato

Ian Grant · Mar 5, 2017

Ironically I think one reason there was no commercial Kodak commercial Ascorbic developer before Xtol was an earlier Swedish US Patent for Ascorbic developers,. Xttol seems to come out when that expires. I have the Patent saved, it's freely available on-line but how quickly I can find it I'm not sure.

Ian

Rudeofus · Mar 5, 2017

albada said:
In Europe, would Potassium Sulfite be cheaper? It also has the advantage of permitting stock solution to be more concentrated. However, other chemicals would probably need to be tweaked in a formula to adjust pH.

Strangely, Potassium Sulfite is crazy expensive in Europe compared to Potassium Metabisulfite or Sodium Sulfite. I have no explanation for this, and ended up making my own Potassium Sulfite stock solution from Potassium Metabisulfite and Potassium Hydroxide.

@Jockos Alan was correct in stating "if the sodium sulfite is omitted the developer can hardly be called an Xtol clone": without similar amounts of Sulfite your developer will not even be close to Xtol.

haziz · Mar 5, 2017

Sounds complicated! Any reason you do not want to use pre-packaged Kodak Xtol?

john_s · Mar 6, 2017

haziz said:
Sounds complicated! Any reason you do not want to use pre-packaged Kodak Xtol?

It's a bit complicated. I spend a total of about an hour per year making up a couple of batches of developer. I do it because where I live lots of products that I used to use have become unavailable. There are expensive alternatives, but mixing my own gives me some independence.

ruilourosa · Mar 6, 2017

i can buy sodium sulfite for 1 euro for kg in comercial purity... even less if i buy more kg´s

ruilourosa · Mar 6, 2017

this purity is good for photographic purposes since 1960 (looking at my father´s negatives developed solely with d-76 that he made from scratch) and since 1996 (looking at my negatives developed with too much different developers...)

haziz · Mar 6, 2017

john_s said:
It's a bit complicated. I spend a total of about an hour per year making up a couple of batches of developer. I do it because where I live lots of products that I used to use have become unavailable. There are expensive alternatives, but mixing my own gives me some independence.

Ironically, that would also expedite the disappearance of the few remaining commercial products. I do anticipate at some point mixing my own D76 or Mytol from scratch, but will save that to the day the commercial products are no longer available, and we would then also have to contend with the lack of film. While the commercial products are still available, I intend to continue supporting Kodak and Ilford and Sprint. Maybe, this support may keep them going for a bit longer.

"XTOL clone" for Europeans

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