Want to Buy WTB: Leica M4 - Clean

[NortheastPhotographic]

Looking for a fresh faced and fancy Leica M4. No beaters or projects please.

 

🛡️ Classifieds Safety Reminder: Please stay safe when buying and selling. Scams via hacked accounts are on the rise globally.

Best Practices: Always use a verified payment method with buyer protection (avoid "PayPal Friends & Family"). Services like Escrow.com are highly secure. Be suspicious of random unsolicited contact via Private Message. If you see suspicious behavior, please use the Report link on the post immediately.

[guangong]

I have two that I bought new around 1970. Going strong ever since. Wish you luck in your search.

 

[Huss]

Looking for a fresh faced and fancy Leica M4. No beaters or projects please.

I assume you are looking to spend more than $10?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I assume you are looking to spend more than $10?

Yessir. 10.95!

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

To clarify, an M4-P or M4-2 are also cameras I'd be interested in. Not trying to get a screaming deal or anything...there just really aren't many available on the market and I don't like eBay.

 

[logan2z]

Tamarkin has an M4-2 listed for sale now in Ex++ condition. Great shop to deal with (I'm just a customer, no other affiliation), and a longtime authorized Leica dealer.

http://www.tamarkin.com/products/m-series/cameras

 

[guangong]

I would hold out for an M4. As for eBay, a seller rated 100%, who accepts unconditional returns are good bets. I just bought a 35 mm Nikkor for rf Nikon that is as close to perfect condition as a 60+ year lens gets. Also, try Igor’s, Roberts, B&H.
The last Leitz built camera was the M5. Later cameras selling Leica marque and reputation, but build quality not the same.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I would hold out for an M4. As for eBay, a seller rated 100%, who accepts unconditional returns are good bets. I just bought a 35 mm Nikkor for rf Nikon that is as close to perfect condition as a 60+ year lens gets. Also, try Igor’s, Roberts, B&H.
The last Leitz built camera was the M5. Later cameras selling Leica marque and reputation, but build quality not the same.

The M4-2 is tempting but it's frustrating that they were fairly recently considered $600-1000 cameras.

 

[logan2z]

The M4-2 is tempting but it's frustrating that they were fairly recently considered $600-1000 cameras.

All M film cameras have gone up in price. M6s are insanely expensive now (as has been discussed in other threads). I probably would hold out for an M4 as I don't think it'll cost you more than an M4-2.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

All M film cameras have gone up in price. M6s are insanely expensive now (as has been discussed in other threads). I probably would hold out for an M4 as I don't think it'll cost you more than an M4-2.

Yes, I agree. I've also heard on good authority that a roughly $4k 'new' M6 or camera similar to the M6 is coming early next year from Leica. That should tame used prices quite a bit. Who would pay $3k when a new one is just a bit more? The drama surrounding my Nikon F6 has made me anxious for a more repairable camera...and the Cosina vintage line lenses being so remarkably good.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Yes, I agree. I've also heard on good authority that a roughly $4k 'new' M6 or camera similar to the M6 is coming early next year from Leica. That should tame used prices quite a bit. Who would pay $3k when a new one is just a bit more? The drama surrounding my Nikon F6 has made me anxious for a more repairable camera...and the Cosina vintage line lenses being so remarkably good.

What good authority would that be?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

What good authority would that be?

My 'Leica enthusiast' friends who know people who've been testing them. It's 2nd hand info for sure, maybe it won't happen. Or maybe Leica will blow it and ask for too much $. I don't know why they sell two 35mm cameras in the $5k range however. The MP is basically an M6 with a fancy coat on. If they release the same thing with a less fancy coat...I mean it has to be cheaper right? Of course that's thinking that usually goes nowhere with Leica.

 

[logan2z]

Yes, I agree. I've also heard on good authority that a roughly $4k 'new' M6 or camera similar to the M6 is coming early next year from Leica. That should tame used prices quite a bit. Who would pay $3k when a new one is just a bit more?

Most nice M6s are in the $3500+ range now, so a new $4K metered M film camera from Leica (that's been rumored for a while) would definitely hurt M6 prices.

 

[BradS]

The "new, less expensive M film camera" rumor has been around for almost a year now.
See for example,
https://leicarumors.com/2020/12/28/a-new-cheap-leica-m-film-camera-is-rumored-for-2021.aspx/

While it is a fun rumor to kick around in one's mind, it makes absolutely no sense from a business point of view....but, hey, since when does anything in the Leica world make any sense...in fact, complete, utter non-sense is respected canon. We shall see.

I think that if the OP feels the urge to own a Leica, then he ought to just hold his nose, suspend rational thought and splash out his hard earned cash.....and a year from now, it won't matter whether you paid $1000 or $1800 for an M4...you'll either love it and think it the best thing ever or you'll realize it does not live up to the hype.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

My 'Leica enthusiast' friends who know people who've been testing them. It's 2nd hand info for sure, maybe it won't happen. Or maybe Leica will blow it and ask for too much $. I don't know why they sell two 35mm cameras in the $5k range however. The MP is basically an M6 with a fancy coat on. If they release the same thing with a less fancy coat...I mean it has to be cheaper right? Of course that's thinking that usually goes nowhere with Leica.

When people first started talking about the cheap Leica I figured Leica would release something at the same price as the current MP then call it "budget" since they would then raise the price of the MP. Lol.

 

[guangong]

My friends who did camera repair at Leitz, the M3 had the best build quality, and while there were improved designs with added viewfinder frames, take up spools, etc, internal build quality decreased slightly. With M6, build quality, viewfinder, etc not at M4 level.
My M3 M4, and M5 still going strong. Keep in mind that Leica M shutter, unlike Nikon S2 and SP, does not have ball bearings and therefore does require periodic servicing.
I doubt that a newly issued M4 by Leica would be same as original Leitz M4’s internal quality.
Where the M cameras excel is the way they fit naturally in the hand. In this aspect, no other 35mm camera comes close. I use other rf cameras, but nothing beats an M for ergonomics.
Prices reflect what buyers are willing to pay...too high and nobody buys.

 

[NB23]

I love ALL Leicas. Except the M6. I boycott all M6.
The M5 is my favorite. With a small lens exclusively, any 35 summicron is a perfect fit. The M5 has the most satisfying shutter and winding action.

ok I have digressed. M4 is excellent, good luck in your quest.

 

[NB23]

My 'Leica enthusiast' friends who know people who've been testing them. It's 2nd hand info for sure, maybe it won't happen. Or maybe Leica will blow it and ask for too much $. I don't know why they sell two 35mm cameras in the $5k range however. The MP is basically an M6 with a fancy coat on. If they release the same thing with a less fancy coat...I mean it has to be cheaper right? Of course that's thinking that usually goes nowhere with Leica.

This is not true, anyone who has been following the Leica history knows that the Leica MP is a big upgrade over the M6 on many aspects. A hint that should end the debate right from the start is that the doors are incompatible, which obviously means that the whole electronic schematic has been redrawn, the metering contacts don’t relay a proper information.
Many M6 have corrosion in the wires and will, someday, have non-working meters. The leds in the vf are slowly but surely fading away. None of this with the MP.

An upgraded viewfinder.
No flare.
New better windows
Choice of 0.58, 0.72, 0,85 magnification.
And last: brass top plate.
And last-last: black paint.

No, really, the differences between the m6 and MP are huge.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

These cameras are like 40-50 years old by now. I'd say any difference they have in 'build quality' is a theoretical metric at best. If you have an M4-2 that was recently serviced, I seriously doubt that it's just going to fall apart on you at this point, and if it does, it's all still fixable. The M3 and M4 may have had better parts in them when built, but these are all very old tools...it's just a gamble! My last M4 had a light leak and so it went back to B&H...I asked for my money back in the return window because they couldn't estimate when it was going to be repaired. Maybe if I never sold my Bessa R4a I'd still be shooting it? Meanwhile my F6 is the most problematic camera I've ever had...save maybe the Gibellini 8x10 I bought new.

I dropped my L35AF point and shoot down some hard wood stairs and I'm still shooting it regularly.

I do think there is a good reason to buy cameras that have a high likelyhood of repairability, but I don't put a lot of stock into one specific model that is decades old, being a superior version of a slightly different model. We're all just caretakers of these things at this point.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

This is not true, anyone who has been following the Leica history knows that the Leica MP is a big upgrade over the M6 on many aspects. A hint that should end the debate right from the start is that the doors are incompatible, which obviously means that the whole electronic schematic has been redrawn, the metering contacts don’t relay a proper information.
Many M6 have corrosion in the wires and will, someday, have non-working meters. The leds in the vf are slowly but surely fading away. None of this with the MP.

An upgraded viewfinder.
No flare.
New better windows
Choice of 0.58, 0.72, 0,85 magnification.
And last: brass top plate.
And last-last: black paint.

No, really, the differences between the m6 and MP are huge.

I'd hope the electronics are different, one is from the 80s and the other is still being made. It's possibly that they're not breaking down in the MP because it's just not as old, we'll have to wait another 2 decades to be sure. Paint, different metal top plate...both just aesthetic choices. M6 top plates are not disintegrating. The VF does seem like the big upgrade. I'm not sure what would make a window better than the ones on the M4. They were also fine then and they're fine now. It's a bummer that so many M6s and 7s are breaking down now. You don't hear about that nearly as much with FM2's and FE2s from Nikon...possibly just because of much greater production numbers. Personally I think the way to go with an M is no electronics of any kind. If a new film M had a fancy matrix meter then maybe that would be cool for dedicated Ektachrome heads but I usually reach for my Sekonic L308S. (As an aside, I use the meter in my Rollei 2.8E more and more. Comparing it to my reflected readings in the Sekonic has actually shown that the accuracy is perfectly acceptable for negative films, assuming it's not being tricked by very bright light somewhere. It's nice to know I'm not stuck if I forget my Sekonic or batteries.)

The flare in the VF is a non issue IMHO. I have no memories of any M4 actually doing so or doing so in a way that impacted my picture taking. If I was having one CLA'd I don't know if I'd even bother having the finder upgraded. People like to talk about it online but come on, it's a nothing burger.

 

[NB23]

I'd hope the electronics are different, one is from the 80s and the other is still being made. It's possibly that they're not breaking down in the MP because it's just not as old, we'll have to wait another 2 decades to be sure. Paint, different metal top plate...both just aesthetic choices. M6 top plates are not disintegrating. The VF does seem like the big upgrade. I'm not sure what would make a window better than the ones on the M4. They were also fine then and they're fine now. It's a bummer that so many M6s and 7s are breaking down now. You don't hear about that nearly as much with FM2's and FE2s from Nikon...possibly just because of much greater production numbers. Personally I think the way to go with an M is no electronics of any kind. If a new film M had a fancy matrix meter then maybe that would be cool for dedicated Ektachrome heads but I usually reach for my Sekonic L308S. (As an aside, I use the meter in my Rollei 2.8E more and more. Comparing it to my reflected readings in the Sekonic has actually shown that the accuracy is perfectly acceptable for negative films, assuming it's not being tricked by very bright light somewhere. It's nice to know I'm not stuck if I forget my Sekonic or batteries.)

The flare in the VF is a non issue IMHO. I have no memories of any M4 actually doing so or doing so in a way that impacted my picture taking. If I was having one CLA'd I don't know if I'd even bother having the finder upgraded. People like to talk about it online but come on, it's a nothing burger.

I'd hope the electronics are different, one is from the 80s and the other is still being made. It's possibly that they're not breaking down in the MP because it's just not as old, we'll have to wait another 2 decades to be sure. Paint, different metal top plate...both just aesthetic choices. M6 top plates are not disintegrating. The VF does seem like the big upgrade. I'm not sure what would make a window better than the ones on the M4. They were also fine then and they're fine now. It's a bummer that so many M6s and 7s are breaking down now. You don't hear about that nearly as much with FM2's and FE2s from Nikon...possibly just because of much greater production numbers. Personally I think the way to go with an M is no electronics of any kind. If a new film M had a fancy matrix meter then maybe that would be cool for dedicated Ektachrome heads but I usually reach for my Sekonic L308S. (As an aside, I use the meter in my Rollei 2.8E more and more. Comparing it to my reflected readings in the Sekonic has actually shown that the accuracy is perfectly acceptable for negative films, assuming it's not being tricked by very bright light somewhere. It's nice to know I'm not stuck if I forget my Sekonic or batteries.)

The flare in the VF is a non issue IMHO. I have no memories of any M4 actually doing so or doing so in a way that impacted my picture taking. If I was having one CLA'd I don't know if I'd even bother having the finder upgraded. People like to talk about it online but come on, it's a nothing burger.

The thing here is that you are giving your opinions. But there are facts.

The M6 dropped the condenser. There is problematic flare with the M6. Not M4, not
MP.
Windows? Sure: they are now coated.
Brass is a major upgrade over zinc, man.
The electronics of the first batch MP were the same as M6 and they are starting to fail. The later MPs have IMPROVED electronics and electronic materials. This was all very well documented. It’s not a 80’s vs 2000 thing, but a major change in quality.

This is the thing with Leica. The laymen and newcomers judge without knowing and give out opinions based on ignroance of the company’s evolution. The M6 is a hugely dumbed down MP when everything has been said and done.
This being said, the M6 is a good camera, but one I dislike for many reasons.

 

[NB23]

The Brass vs zinc debate is always frown upon by... M6 owners. Like, they own a M6 therefore it has to be the best, right?
Anyhow, brass has many advantages, the only better material for a camera would be 18 carat gold, not for the luxury but for the warmth feel of the touch.
My friendly Leica advice is simply to avoid the M6 and favor any other Leica.
Here is a M6 zinc top plate, which was solely a cost-cutting move by Leica. Nothing else, only cost-cutting.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

The Brass vs zinc debate is always frown upon by... M6 owners. Like, they own a M6 therefore it has to be the best, right?
Anyhow, brass has many advantages, the only better material for a camera would be 18 carat gold, not for the luxury but for the warmth feel of the touch.
My friendly Leica advice is simply to avoid the M6 and favor any other Leica.
Here is a M6 zinc top plate, which was solely a cost-cutting move by Leica. Nothing else, only cost-cutting.

View attachment 290639 View attachment 290640 View attachment 290641 View attachment 290642 View attachment 290643

Yow, look at them bubbles. Ok, maybe brass is better. I stand corrected.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

save maybe the Gibellini 8x10 I bought new

What was the issue with the Gibellini?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

What was the issue with the Gibellini?

It was a "Bellatrix" model.

1. Light leaks from day one requiring 2 trips to the factory in Italy.

2. Their ultra expensive film holders do not fit cameras such as my current Chamonix 810V.

3. The Gibellini did not accept my Fidelity film holders.

They ultimately provided me with a functional camera, but by that time I was so disgusted with them that I sold it all off. I wish the holders at least would have worked out because they are beautiful, but how do you make a film holder that doesn't fit a camera like a Chamonix?

Many other users have come out of the woodwork with other similar stories since I had my issue. Some people get lucky but it's a big gamble with them.