Wray Wide Angle--Lens Query

[JG Motamedi]

I recently came into a 12" f/6.3 Wray Wide Angle lens, and wonder if anyone out there is familar with it. The lens is in barrel, coated, and is 4/4 design, probably a double Gauss like the Wide Field Ektar. Coverage appears good: On my 11x14 the lens easily gives me 3" of front rise, and would clearly give more if the camera allowed. Using front swing to get to the edges of the light, I note that there is some field curvature (although much less than my 210/9 Computar) and the last inch or two of the image circle are not sharp, although they improve a bit stopped down.

I haven't found very much information on the lens, and would appreciate any knowledge. The Vade Mecum has a brief paragraph:

Wide Angle Anastigmat f6.3 89mm (3.5in) for 5x4, 7in for 1/2plate. See Wra013 This is in the same design group as the Zeiss Topogon, with very deep external curves and a thick walled Gauss layout. The 89mm version is a generous design. In use it covers 90° at f11 and 100° at f16 or less, or as the B.J.A. 1950 p212 found at f6.3 it covers a 1/4plate, (75°) almost perfectly, at f11 a 1/2plate with a little fall off and at f16 a 1/2plate is well covered. They said it would be ideal for a 5x4in camera, and: (a) it was available in an Epsilon shutter, but: (b) the illustration was of a lens in a barrel mount at No70,890 (advert. idem, p418) and these have been seen but are the uncommon version. (This coverage is a touch less than the Schneider Angulon and the contrast and corrections are probably a touch less good. But for many purposes the lenses are a close match. Users did find that the Wray had a lower contrast under difficult conditions and ultimately chose the Angulon as the more reliable. Today with multicoating it might be a closer run thing.)​

Anybody using or used one of these?

 

[df cardwell]

What an interesting lens ! Extrapolating from my WF Ektars, and the Cooke VIIB, you probably will get a 21" image circle at f/22. If you have a light source in the field of view, it'll flare if it is uncoated ( and I expect it to be ) but you shouldn't have trouble if you are reasonably careful. It's a great find. Have fun.

 

[JG Motamedi]

It is actually coated. A very nice blue color, like the sapphire blue I have seen in some later Artars. By the serial number, it was produced in the late 1950s to early 1960s.

 

[df cardwell]

Then you have a real gem. Shooting into a spotlight will surely flare... but for all normal work, should be a fine lens.

 

[Ole]

That would be a great lens for 12x16"! I'm glad I have a 210/6.8 pre-WWII Angulon already, so you get to keep this one

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

I stumbled across this old thread when searching for info on the 12" f6.3 Wray Wide Angle prior to bidding on one on eBay. I just won the auction and the lens should be here around the end of the week. Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd post here.

I'm interested in hearing from others who have used this lens for ULF photography. In particular, I was wondering if Jason still owns his and if he's happy with the performance? If not, what were the problems?

Has anyone attempted to use this lens on anything bigger than 11x14? I plan to use it on 7x17 and am hopeful it will cover 14x17 as well. Based on the little information I've been able to find online, it looks like it covers somewhere between 90 and 100 degrees. 100 degrees would be fabulous, but even 90 degrees would yield a 610mm image circle - enough for 14x17 with about an inch of rise.

Kerry

 

[JG Motamedi]

Kerry,

I sold mine a few months ago. Perhaps the current owner will speak up.

I didn't use the lens very much, a 12" WA lens just didn't work for me with 11x14. That said, in my use of the lens I found it to be quite sharp, but contrast was a bit weak. Coverage was huge and it does cover 14x17, although I am not sure how much movement it will provide. The one thing I didn't like about this lens was it's bokeh, very similar to the WF Ektar. Bokeh is a serious consideration for me since I usually shoot close to wide open.

Hope this helps.

jason

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

Jason,

Wow, thanks for the quick response. I'm more of a universal focus guy, so I'm not too worried about the Bokeh issue. I'll be doing most of my shooting in the f32 - f64 range with this lens. The weak contrast is more of a concern, but I have a compendium shade to reduce flare and can adjust development to help boost the overall contrast a little , too. It would be nice to have a contrastier lens with better coatings, but there aren't a lot of them out there with this kind of coverage - especially at this kind of price.

When I saw the chance to get a 300mm lens that covers 90+ degrees for less than $300, I couldn't resist. Even if it doesn't quite cover the full 100 degrees (would be a 727mm image circle!) indicated for the shorter versions, it should be enough coverage for my needs.

Kerry

 

[JG Motamedi]

Kerry,

I never used my compendium with the WA Wray because it is too difficult for me to use a lens cap as shutter with my compendium in place. If you can do so I doubt you will have much problem with flare or low contrast.

One thought; if the lens works for you, have it multicoated by Arax (http://araxfoto.com/). I have had a few lenses coated by them, and have been very happy with the results. I have a number of 125+ year-old multi-coated lenses. One does of course risk destroying the lenses, but I have never had a problem.

best regards,

jason

 

[wfwhitaker]

I've mounted this lens on the 14x17 and by f/16 the corners appear fully illuminated. Since I've not made any exposures with it, I can't speak to the quality or to the amount of coverage it might ultimately afford. But it does cover. 7x17 should be no problem.

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

One thought; if the lens works for you, have it multicoated by Arax (http://araxfoto.com/). I have had a few lenses coated by them, and have been very happy with the results. I have a number of 125+ year-old multi-coated lenses. One does of course risk destroying the lenses, but I have never had a problem.

Jason,

This is a very interesting option. Their pricing is very reasonable. In addition to the Wray, which is single coated (although the eBay seller said it is multicoated - maybe somebody already had it done. I should be so lucky.), I have an older 8" Cooke Series VIIB that is uncoated. Like the Wray, it is a 4 element air-spaced wide-field Guass design. With 8 air:glass interfaces, it could definitely benefit from coating. Multicoating would be a dream come true. It's the widest lens I own that covers 7x17. It's very tiny and lightweight and capable of covering 100 degrees

From the Arax web site:

Polishing and Multi Coating, for each surface $15

ABOUT MULTI COATING SERVICE

For non coated lenses, ARAX company made custom Multi-Coating on ARSENAL factory. The sophisticated seven-layer dielectric coatings are vacuum-deposited on glass-to-air surfaces to reduce internal reflection, increase transmission efficiency and enhance contrast.

Leica, Carl Zeiss Jena, all other lenses could be polished and multi-coated for $30 for one glass independent from the lens size.

You should send the glass only without any metallic parts and rings.

We process only the glass elements which would be stripped out of the metal rings and other containers that hold them in place in the lenses. We could clean the old glue off the partially separated lenses, clean off old surface coating, then re-coat and re-glue the lenses, package them, and return them. In other words, we would not even have to deal with replacing broken parts of the lenses; only with the optical elements themselves.
We don't want to risk to brake lenses from metallic rings. And we not like to unglue the glasses from each other because of risk of damaging. The point is that we want to minimize the damaging risk. Anyway you should know that along processing, lens damaging possible and we can not take full responsible for that.

So, did you remove your elements from their barrels prior to ending them to Arax, or did you send the complete lens, barrel and all? If you removed them, did you do it youself? And, if so, how did you keep track of the order and direction of the elements and how did you reassemble the lenses to make sure they were properly collimated?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am seriously interested in this service. It seems like a great way to breathe new life into some older lenses - especially those that are uncoated and have lots of air:glass surfaces - like my Cooke. With no cemented surfaces, the Cooke should be fairly easy to disassemble with minimal risk of damage. It appears the elements are just held in place with threaded retainers - not "spun in" like some newer lenses. And, since it's uncoated, there is no existing coating to polish off.

I'll have to check the Wray when it arrives to see if it also looks easy to disassemble. The prospect of a couple multicoated wide angle ULF lenses is very appealing.

Kerry

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

I've mounted this lens on the 14x17 and by f/16 the corners appear fully illuminated. Since I've not made any exposures with it, I can't speak to the quality or to the amount of coverage it might ultimately afford. But it does cover. 7x17 should be no problem.

Will,

Thanks for the info. It only needs to cover about 85 degrees to hit the corners of 14x17. That's pretty conservative for a wide-field Guass. Unless there is some mechanical limitation, it should easily cover 90 degrees (likely more) when stopped down to f32. The Vade Mecum 100 degree figure might be a tad optimitic, but it might come close at f64. Personally, I'll be happy with 90 degrees. Anything more would be a nice bonus.

Kerry

 

[JG Motamedi]

...So, did you remove your elements from their barrels prior to ending them to Arax, or did you send the complete lens, barrel and all? If you removed them, did you do it youself? And, if so, how did you keep track of the order and direction of the elements and how did you reassemble the lenses to make sure they were properly collimated?nts are just held in place with threaded retainers - not "spun in" like some newer lenses...

Kerry,

I sent only glass to Arax. With a few of my lenses it was simple to do. A good example was a protar VII; the elements were held in with a threaded ring, and they were easily identifiable. A few earlier lenses, notibly a Dallmeyer 3B Patent Portrait, were harder since they were burnished in. I slowly bent the burnished part out and carefully measured and sketched the position of the elements. Now with a lens like a Gauss which has a number of seemingly identical elements it may be more difficult. You may need to label the glass somehow, perhaps etching a number into the side of the elements?

best regards,

jason

 

[PHOTOTONE]

Kerry,

One thought; if the lens works for you, have it multicoated by Arax (http://araxfoto.com/). I have had a few lenses coated by them, and have been very happy with the results. I have a number of 125+ year-old multi-coated lenses. One does of course risk destroying the lenses, but I have never had a problem.

best regards,

jason

A question regarding coating by Arax. I have had several front elements from my older Leica lenses polished and recoated by Arax, and it was great, however I was under the impression that he could not handle lenses that had cemented front groups. Have you had him coat lens cells that are cemented pairs? Such as found on many 19th century lenses?

 

[JG Motamedi]

Yes, Arax did a few Petzval lenses for me, which have front cemented doublets.

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

Now with a lens like a Gauss which has a number of seemingly identical elements it may be more difficult. You may need to label the glass somehow, perhaps etching a number into the side of the elements?

Jason,

Thanks for the response. Since the elements are so similar, I'm afraid of getting them back together improperly and reducing the performance of the reasassembled lens. No point paying someone to multicoat the elements only to destroy the performance by putting it all back together incorrectly.

I'd really like to try this with my 8" Series VIIB, but don't want to do the disassembly/reassembly myself. It looks easy enough to get apart, it's the putting back togther that has me worried.

So, can anyone recommend a qualified technician to disassemble my lens and reassemble it properly after the elements are returned from Arax. I see from the SK Grimes web site that they no longer recement lenses. Of course, the Cooke is an air-spaced design, so there would be no cement involved, but I wonder if this means the folks at SK Grimes are totally out of the optical repair/assembly business and are now exclusively a mechanical shop. Any other recommendations?

Kerry

 

[JG Motamedi]

Kerry,

John Van Stelton at Focal Point (http://www.focalpointlens.com/) also does this sort of work, however since they also do recoating I doubt they would want to do the prep-work for somebody else, but you can always ask.

jason

 

[sanking]

Jason,

Thanks for the response. Since the elements are so similar, I'm afraid of getting them back together improperly and reducing the performance of the reasassembled lens. No point paying someone to multicoat the elements only to destroy the performance by putting it all back together incorrectly.

I'd really like to try this with my 8" Series VIIB, but don't want to do the disassembly/reassembly myself. It looks easy enough to get apart, it's the putting back togther that has me worried.

So, can anyone recommend a qualified technician to disassemble my lens and reassemble it properly after the elements are returned from Arax. I see from the SK Grimes web site that they no longer recement lenses. Of course, the Cooke is an air-spaced design, so there would be no cement involved, but I wonder if this means the folks at SK Grimes are totally out of the optical repair/assembly business and are now exclusively a mechanical shop. Any other recommendations?

Kerry

Kerry,

Some years ago Paul Ebel disassembled and glued the elements back on a 210mm Angulon that was separating badly. The price was very reasonable as best I recall. I can not find his address or phone number right now but if someone else does not post it I am sure I have it somewhere in my files.

Sandy

 

[cowanw]

Jason,
Could you send them one at a time? Slow but sure to keep track.
Bill
Thanks for the response. Since the elements are so similar, I'm afraid of getting them back together improperly and reducing the performance of the reasassembled lens. No point paying someone to multicoat the elements only to destroy the performance by putting it all back together incorrectly.

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

Well, I'll be... The lens arrived yesterday - and it's already multicoated. Somebody else did the work for me. While the coatings aren't as brilliant as a modern Nikkor, it is definitely multicoated. I see bright green, magenta and blue reflections.

I have no idea when this lens was made, but I'm guessing it was 1950s or 1960s, which would make multicoating at the time it was originally manufactured impossible. So, a previous owner must have went to the trouble and expensive of getting it retro-coated. Probably using the same rational I was - it's an air-spaced design, which would benefit from modern coatings. The elements are held in the barrel using threaded retainers. So, it's easy to disassemble and re-assemble with no cemented elements to de-cement/re-cement.

So, I got a multicoated 305mm lens capable of covering somewhere between 90 and 100 degrees for $288. I can't wait to give it a try. If the performance is satisfactory, I'll probably go ahead and send my 8" Cooke Series VIIB elements out to Arax for multicoating.

Kerry

 

[Wayne R. Scott]

Paul Ebel Lens Services, 420 21st street North, Suite 2, PO box 141, Menomonie, WI 54751. (651) 335- 8759

Wayne

 

[JG Motamedi]

Excellent news!

Like you, I was surprised by a 12/19/25 Turner-Reich I just bought for the shutter: Somebody had coated and probably recemented the glass. Maybe a keeper? Perhaps...

Do let us know how the lens works out!

jason

 

[ReallyBigCameras]

Do let us know how the lens works out!

It will be a while before I have a camera big enough to accurately assess the coverage, but when I do, I'll be sure to share the results.

Kerry

 

[RDWestPR]

Following the thread... I also have an old WRAY wide barrel lens. Mine is a 6.25" f6.8 with flange and was taken from a NuArk copy-camera used for litho work. The barrel is in real rough shape, but the glass is still okay. What I'm looking for is disassembly instructions so I can clean it up and repaint it. Minus the glass cells, of course. Any links to servicing WRAY enlarger lenses would be most appreciated. Lots of historical data, not much on repairs. Thanks, Rob

 

[RDWestPR]

CORRECTION- Lens is 8.25" long (209.5mm). Not 6.25".