Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Apr 11, 2012

If you will do the same recipe Autochrome with Lavedrine book , You will be needed to buy Acid Blue 3 Patent Blue dye.
Formula says 24 grams per 100 ml and 25mg costs 80 dollars. 24 grams of patent blue costs nearly 70 000 dollars , seventy thousand dollars.
You are talking to sell one sheet per 5 dollars. I think you won the lottery and want to spread golden coins to fishes in the pond.

holmburgers · Apr 11, 2012

Replicating something verbatim is not my interest. The Lumieres chose what they did because it produced the best result for the time and because it could be manufactured affordably. I think the goal should be a result, not a process. An end, not the means.

Reagent grade, analytical quality dyes from Sigma-Aldrich are always going to be expensive, but there are cheaper manufacturers out there for all sorts of colorants.

Photo Engineer · Apr 11, 2012

Well, the references that I found about Dufay are ambiguous as to whether it was pos-pos or neg-pos when used for MP films. The inference there was pos-pos as it was compared to Kodachrome and Technicolor which are both pos-pos.

As far as making a negative, I guess I never saw reference to any working examples of negative Dufay or Autochrome. Sorry.

PE

E. von Hoegh · Apr 11, 2012

holmburgers said:
If a color screen-plate product (like Dufaycolor, Autochrome, etc.) came to market today, would you use it?

What format would you prefer it in? How fast would it have to be? Would it have to be film, or would you bother with plates?

Would you be content with the one-off original? Would you go to the trouble to reversal process or would you process it as a negative? Would you scan it or attempt to print it on RA-4 or Ilfochrome?

What price point would seem reasonable to you?

I'd use it if it came in 8x10 plates (first choice) or film. Price would depend upon results, of course. But I'd probably try it either way. Scanning and ink jet prints from an autochrome would be interesting.

holmburgers · Apr 13, 2012

bump

Votes very much appreciated.

Just gettin' you ready for November...

Klainmeister · Apr 13, 2012

Oh boy, what a friggen teaser!!!!

mrred · Apr 13, 2012

holmburgers said:
I think it'd be cool to team up with dr5 for reversal processing services, while also having a well tested procedure for obtaining good results at home. This would be the "recommended" method.

Reversals at home are not difficult, as I have been doing them for about a year. Anyone that has been doing E6, it would be a walk in the park. There are no temps to watch either.

DR5 would be a good commercial partner to have, as some of us just won't process at home.

holmburgers · Apr 18, 2012

bump

More votes always appreciated.

My personal belief is that a screen-plate product would thrive in this world of scanning & sharing photographs electronically. Their weakness was always the inherent irreproducibility. I think the current darkroom culture, particularly people who love developing their own b&w film, would get behind this as an opportunity to make color pictures easily, with normal b&w techniques.

I'm in the process of plumbing some pipe dreams... I hope someday it'll be possible to turn on the water.

Photo Engineer · Apr 18, 2012

Chris;

Start with a Dufay type film then, and work up!

PE

labyrinth photo · Apr 18, 2012

very much in favour of this and have been discussing autochrome and dufay with a couple of clients into alt-process.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Apr 18, 2012

I want 6.5 x 9 cm glass plates!

holmburgers · Apr 19, 2012

I agree Ron; I just use Autochrome in lieu of screen-plate, which no one seems to know the meaning of!

In reality, what I have in mind is much more inline with a Dufay type screen. Though Autochrome's stochastic pattern does give it advantages over ruled lines.

Don't worry, no potatoes were harmed in the making of this film!

Photo Engineer · Apr 19, 2012

Interestingly enough, I have seen Dufay and Autochrome side by side and the Dufay is much better at all sizes but the Autochrome seems to fall off below 4x5 in image quality.

PE

holmburgers · Apr 19, 2012

Interesting indeed! Well that just goes to show you how much I know.

I posted a really cool Dufaycolor photo I just found.

I'm gonna see if I can find a measurement of the color elements in some of these systems. I'm sure I've learnt such things in the past, but I always forget...

In our private convo's, you mentioned that dichromated-gelatin is no good for making a screen due to its resolution. But if I may counter, DCG has some of the highest resolution of any photo-sensitive substance; afterall it's used in holography. There's one method for screen formation in particular (du Hauron's original proposal, though refined in 1862(?) by his brother) that I have my mind set on.

holmburgers · Apr 19, 2012

Autochrome.
Grains are from 5-10 microns, 1700-2500 grains per linear inch

Dufaycolor.
Spacing of red lines = 533 lines per inch.

Finlay.
240 filter squares per square inch

Thames Screen Plate.
Each circle was 1/400 of an inch wide

Photo Engineer · Apr 19, 2012

I have probably been exposed to some pretty poor DCG. We used to use it for making decals where I worked during college. I'm sure that there are better examples than the ones I saw then.

From your examples, the Autochrome should be much less grainy and "pixellated?" than Dufay, but not from what I saw. I have trouble scanning Autochromes, but those who have scanned Dufay seem to have a lot less problems. It might be due to the graininess of the emulsion then. IDK.

You can see the crushing of the Autochrome grains in the first example.

PE

holmburgers · Apr 19, 2012

I wonder if the black spaces in an autochrome make for difficult scanning; it certainly slowed them down compared to Dufay.

I've been doodling some ideas for line screens that are like Dufay, but with sinusoidal or wavy lines, to hopefully introduce a more stochastic appearance that eliminates moire patterns. I suspect it'll work, but if it did it seems like that kind of design would be used in Bayer patterns.

Come to think of it, I've seen no screen-plates in person, besides my own humble experiments. Funny.. for such a lover of analog, most of it is seen on a computer screen! Argh..

kb3lms · Apr 19, 2012

Isn't the Finlay Screen in the previous post the same thing as a Bayer Filter mask?

holmburgers · Apr 19, 2012

Pretty much, yeah.

Prof_Pixel · Apr 19, 2012

kb3lms said:
Isn't the Finlay Screen in the previous post the same thing as a Bayer Filter mask?

... yes, in the sense that it contains 2 green filters for each red and blue filter.

polyglot · Apr 19, 2012

Have a look at pentile matrices too, they're basically an RGBG Bayer array but the arrangement might get you less moire artefacts.

holmburgers · Apr 20, 2012

polyglot said:
Have a look at pentile matrices too, they're basically an RGBG Bayer array but the arrangement might get you less moire artefacts.

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing

atomicthumbs · Apr 20, 2012

Potato starch is so old-fashioned. How about crushed artificial gemstones? Garnet comes in many colors!

kb3lms · Apr 20, 2012

If I understand correctly, you expose such a film through the base with the emulsion on the back and the filter mask on the front. How would you propose to put the filter mask on the base? Dufaycolor, wikipedia says, used a "greasy ink" and a convoluted sounding process. What about some sort of inkjet process?

holmburgers · Apr 23, 2012

No potato starches, nothing primitive like that. Note that I said Autochrome-like... all I mean by that is a red, green & blue screen. Though I do like the gem stones idea! How 'bout ruby, sapphire and emerald? That will be reserved for the professional line.

Reading J.S. Friedman's History of Color Photography and the chapter on formation of screen-plates will give you some idea of the innumerable ways people have proposed to do this before. And then there's E.J. Wall's History of Three-Colour Photography...

All I'll say at present is that it's a "classic" method, though never used in a product as far as I know.

I personally have no interest in an inkjet screen, but I'd support anyone working on that.

Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

Would you buy & use a modern Autochrome-type film?

Yeah, probably.

Probably not.

Would have to see the results first.

Mustafa Umut Sarac

holmburgers

Photo Engineer

E. von Hoegh

holmburgers

Klainmeister

mrred

holmburgers

Photo Engineer

labyrinth photo

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

Would you buy & use a modern Autochrome-type film?

Yeah, probably.

Probably not.

Would have to see the results first.

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