Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

holmburgers · Apr 10, 2012

If a color screen-plate product (like Dufaycolor, Autochrome, etc.) came to market today, would you use it?

What format would you prefer it in? How fast would it have to be? Would it have to be film, or would you bother with plates?

Would you be content with the one-off original? Would you go to the trouble to reversal process or would you process it as a negative? Would you scan it or attempt to print it on RA-4 or Ilfochrome?

What price point would seem reasonable to you?

Klainmeister · Apr 10, 2012

Oh huge yes. I am already in love with wet plate and could only imagine doing something closer to color. Beautiful! Love to get a 4x5 setup first.

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 10, 2012

The color palette and the texture would have to closely resemble that of the original potato-starch autochromes. I'm sure it would be frighteningly expensive so I'd have to be able to put together a kickstarter type project to get funded to do it. But if it was there, I'd definitely try it - I've got a few whole plate sized glass plate holders kicking around I think that I could use to shoot it, and I definitely have 11x14 glass plate holders which would be tres cool - could you imagine an 11x14 color glass plate original?

EASmithV · Apr 10, 2012

yes, yes, yes. Plates and Flexibile backing would both be excellent. 4x5 and 8x10 please!

ASA 25 or greater would be nice...

removed-user-1 · Apr 10, 2012

Oh yes. That would be amazing.

Laurent · Apr 10, 2012

I'd be happy to see what it looks like in 4x5

keithwms · Apr 10, 2012

Oh hail yeah!

kevs · Apr 10, 2012

holmburgers said:
If a color screen-plate product (like Dufaycolor, Autochrome, etc.) came to market today, would you use it?

That's an interesting question. I'd certainly give in a try if I could.

holmburgers said:
What format would you prefer it in? How fast would it have to be? Would it have to be film, or would you bother with plates?

135, 120 or 220 film. Over 25 ASA, I'd prefer 100 ASA or over for most situations. I don't have a plate camera, so it's film or nowt for me.

holmburgers said:
Would you be content with the one-off original? Would you go to the trouble to reversal process or would you process it as a negative? Would you scan it or attempt to print it on RA-4 or Ilfochrome?

No, I wouldn't be satisfied with an original I couldn't print or scan. I'd process it as reversal if the requisite chemistry or kit were available; otherwise I'd expect a processing service to be available, as per Kodachrome. I'd probably scan it.

holmburgers said:
What price point would seem reasonable to you?

£5.00 to £10:00 per roll, depending whether processing was included.

Cheers,
kevs

Photo Engineer · Apr 10, 2012

Given the technical superiority of Dufay, and the ease of making it, I would only go with Dufay. Given the improvements in making screens, additive colors and emulsions, I think this would be a big hit, especially in LF sizes.

And Dye Bleach for prints.

PE

polyglot · Apr 10, 2012

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't ever going to approach the quality (resolution, colour accuracy) of current C41 and E6 processes, is it? If so, I definitely wouldn't be a regular user but I might give it a once-off blast if it didn't require the purchase of large/expensive quantities of chemistry. If I could soup it using my C41, E6 or RA4 chems sitting on the shelves, all the better.

It would have to be film; I'm not bothering with a plate holder or new processing tanks. It'll have to either fit in a Paterson or Jobo 120 spiral or a 3010. I'd prefer 120 but if you're manufacturing this small-scale, my guess is that sheets are an easier option, in which case I'm fine with 4x5. ISO12 is usable for me though 25 would be better. And you'll need to provide development times/instructions for rotary development.

I would scan it for sure, but reversal processing or something printable to RA4 are both fine options. If the colour is good, I'd probably prefer reversal.

Price would need to be about $5/sheet (4x5") or less - you're competing with $2/sheet E6.

ME Super · Apr 10, 2012

polyglot said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't ever going to approach the quality (resolution, colour accuracy) of current C41 and E6 processes, is it? If so, I definitely wouldn't be a regular user but I might give it a once-off blast if it didn't require the purchase of large/expensive quantities of chemistry. If I could soup it using my C41, E6 or RA4 chems sitting on the shelves, all the better.

It would have to be film; I'm not bothering with a plate holder or new processing tanks. It'll have to either fit in a Paterson or Jobo 120 spiral or a 3010. I'd prefer 120 but if you're manufacturing this small-scale, my guess is that sheets are an easier option, in which case I'm fine with 4x5. ISO12 is usable for me though 25 would be better. And you'll need to provide development times/instructions for rotary development.

I would scan it for sure, but reversal processing or something printable to RA4 are both fine options. If the colour is good, I'd probably prefer reversal.

Price would need to be about $5/sheet (4x5") or less - you're competing with $2/sheet E6.

I'm with polyglot; it would need to be film - for me it would need to be 35mm. If this criteria could be met, then yeah, I'd buy it.

Dufaycolor is an additive color process, where the colors are put in "grains" in front of the light-sensitive layer. As such it would only need B&W reversal processing chemistry; no need for CD3, CD4, or the now-discontinued CD6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dufaycolor

erikg · Apr 10, 2012

Autochrome was similar, just needed b&w reversal processing. Beautiful look, not at all like modern color. I'd be interested. Couldn't you just make the screen and sandwich that with a sheet of film?

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Apr 10, 2012

Call me among the "let me see the results first" crowd.

I wouldn't be looking for an equivalent to E6 in terms of grain and fidelity, but if it is something with real character (e.g. the original Autochrome, which loses in the "objective" category but wins oh! so much in the "subjective" one!), then I can be a consumer for life.

Given that colour slide is now either Fuji or Fuji, anything new would be cool.

I would love 120, so that my 6x6 projector could be useful for the years to come. Even glass plates would be cool: that's why I got that plate back for my Rolleiflex! Shoot a square on 6.5x9, cut down with diamond, mount or tape corners, slip in trays, voilà!

removed account4 · Apr 10, 2012

if i could afford it, i would use it,
large format would be nice

Photo Engineer · Apr 10, 2012

These imaging methods would not be even close to anything on the market today.

PE

Prof_Pixel · Apr 10, 2012

Polaroid offered an additive color film (Polachrome slide film) and the results never looked good to me.

keithwms · Apr 10, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
These imaging methods would not be even close to anything on the market today.

PE

Nor is daguerreotype nor a lot of other historical processes, but....

Brian C. Miller · Apr 11, 2012

I would buy an Autochrome-type film for the effect, and I would buy a Dufay-type film to use if normal color process film became unavailable. Dufay film was available in 120, so I'm sure that nothing will change for that process.

Since Ilfochrome will no longer be made, that would mean a replacement paper would have to be developed. The other alternative would be a balance for RA-4.

A prototype Dufay might be constructed using the Efke Aura. I would try printing a screen on the back using pigment ink, and then see if that survived normal processing. Their normal IR seems to have a decent back side for retouching, and it at least accepts marker ink quite easily.

Oxleyroad · Apr 11, 2012

I'd sure like to be be one to give this a go.

holmburgers · Apr 11, 2012

Thanks for all the comments everyone. Your participation in this "market research" has been most appreciated!

Here are some thoughts of mine...

35mm is probably not possible, but 120 should be. 4x5" would definitely be the bread and butter of any screen-plate product line, though you'd have to make 8x10" available just for the sheer sake of seeing something like that!

I agree that it's gotta be on film, no plates. ISO 25 seems like a good benchmark, but I suspect that means you'd have to have an emulsion of 400 or so. The screen will absorb a significant amount of light. I think good reciprocity characteristics (or at the least, well published correction tables) would be ideal.

Processing could be normal negative development, yielding a color negative to be printed on RA-4. But let's face it, more realistically they're going to be scanned and shared online. Scannability is crucial to the success of a modern screen-plate, and my experiments with slide-film reseaus show that the denisty is quite a bit more than my Epson 4990 can handle. Something to think about...

Negative processing would allow for pushing, which might be interesting. Reversal (positive) processing would be more rigid.

I think it'd be cool to team up with dr5 for reversal processing services, while also having a well tested procedure for obtaining good results at home. This would be the "recommended" method.

The results aren't going to approach anything resembling E6 or C-41, but that's not the point at all.

Photo Engineer · Apr 11, 2012

I don't think that a workable color negative additive system has ever been demonstrated.

PE

holmburgers · Apr 11, 2012

If you develop an Autochrome or Dufaycolor as a negative, it creates a negative color image resembling an unmasked C-41 neg. What more is there to do?

There's an historical example of this in Bertrand Lavedrine's book.

Mind you, this is with the unspeakable as our end result.

TimFox · Apr 11, 2012

I'm not familiar with Dufaycolor, but the Autochromes I've seen in museums are wonderful.
I would be interested to try new Autochrome in 8x10 sheet film, especially if Dr5 could process the b/w reversal layer.
ASA 25 would be nice, but I have a heavy tripod.

holmburgers · Apr 11, 2012

On 2nd thought, 35mm is theoretically possible. PolaChrome was a screen-plate process.

Check out this big pic from flickr, you can see the RGB screen. Not bad... http://www.flickr.com/photos/chuckthewriter/5523140358/sizes/o/in/photostream/

I'm curious how Polaroid made the screen.

railwayman3 · Apr 11, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I don't think that a workable color negative additive system has ever been demonstrated.

PE

Dufaycolor was used in a small number of 35mm movie films in the 1930's, in a color neg/positive film format. I've seen some on video and the results are entirely usable, if not up to some other systems. I believe that difficulties included, registration of the screen in printing, slow speed of the film for studio work and loss of brightness in projection due to the screen, so it was never widely adopted.

Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

Would you buy & use a modern Autochrome-type film?

Yeah, probably.

Probably not.

Would have to see the results first.

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Would you buy and use a modern Autochrome type film?

Would you buy & use a modern Autochrome-type film?

Yeah, probably.

Probably not.

Would have to see the results first.

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