Would Kodak get back into the instant film business?

[Cholentpot]

This is a TERRIBLE idea…

At least, the “make cheap film, flood the market, lower the quality standard“ part of your comment seems very similar to what Foma and ORWO are doing in the EU (although unfortunately, those cheap prices don’t make it to the US). And although both of them make decent films sometimes, I also see them get a lot of flack for their very obvious and sometimes image destroying lack of quality control and material selection… I wager to say that if Kodak did something similar, it would completely destroy their reputation and kill off any aspirations of making new film that they may have left.

I deal with average Joe public as a working stiff photographer. 'They still make film?' Is the #1 question I get asked when I pull out a classic SLR or TLR at a gig, #2 is 'Why? Why would you even bother?' and #3 is 'What is that even?'

People under 30, outside of the arts community don't even know what film is. People over 50 are offended that I'd even shoot film. They hate the stuff, your average person who was locked into film as their only option was glad to see the backs of it. They despise everything to do with film and are content with using their phones to capture all images. It's heaven sent. Outside of our filmshooting bubble people don't even know that film exists. Now, the kids think it's the bees knees and want to try it out. It's cool, hip and artsy at the same time, until they hear what it costs.

If Kodak puts out an Eastman line of ultra affordable films it would bring a whole new base back into the fold. These people would hopefully move to the better stuff at some point. We all don't start with a Cadillac, we start with a base Chevy or Ford and hope some day to drive something nicer. But if GM didn't make cheap cars they wouldn't be able to garner loyalty to get people to buy the nicer stuff.

Fender does this, Gibson, ESP, and just about every big guitar and instrument brand. Heck every big player in cameras does this too. No one trashes on Canon because they sell truckloads of dinky plastic DSLRs.

If anyone at Kodak is reading this first off Hi. I worked on campus back in '14. Fun times. Tell the gang hello. Second, make budget education value bulk rolls of at least black and white medium speed available. Why should I be buying Ultrafine Extreme 400 when Kodak is a half day's drive from my house? Why am I buying anything other than domestic American made film? It's 2025, chemical science has come a long way, I'm sure you can stabilize black and white film for a longer expiry date, or even give a more liberal time frame. We want to shoot more film and give it out to a new generation of film shooters. Help us out and by extension yourselves.

You would think that idea would be good.

You'd think someone would be listening and poking around websites like this

I want. I want. I want.

I want a Rolls Royce and a driver to go with it.

Do you already drive a rolls? I'm sure if you were a loyal rolls costumer they'd at least listen to you. As a loyal Kodak customer I'd hope they'd listen to the wants of a loyal customer. Otherwise who are they selling to?

 

[mshchem]

I deal with average Joe public as a working stiff photographer. 'They still make film?' Is the #1 question I get asked when I pull out a classic SLR or TLR at a gig, #2 is 'Why? Why would you even bother?' and #3 is 'What is that even?'

People under 30, outside of the arts community don't even know what film is. People over 50 are offended that I'd even shoot film. They hate the stuff, your average person who was locked into film as their only option was glad to see the backs of it. They despise everything to do with film and are content with using their phones to capture all images. It's heaven sent. Outside of our filmshooting bubble people don't even know that film exists. Now, the kids think it's the bees knees and want to try it out. It's cool, hip and artsy at the same time, until they hear what it costs.

If Kodak puts out an Eastman line of ultra affordable films it would bring a whole new base back into the fold. These people would hopefully move to the better stuff at some point. We all don't start with a Cadillac, we start with a base Chevy or Ford and hope some day to drive something nicer. But if GM didn't make cheap cars they wouldn't be able to garner loyalty to get people to buy the nicer stuff.

Fender does this, Gibson, ESP, and just about every big guitar and instrument brand. Heck every big player in cameras does this too. No one trashes on Canon because they sell truckloads of dinky plastic DSLRs.

If anyone at Kodak is reading this first off Hi. I worked on campus back in '14. Fun times. Tell the gang hello. Second, make budget education value bulk rolls of at least black and white medium speed available. Why should I be buying Ultrafine Extreme 400 when Kodak is a half day's drive from my house? Why am I buying anything other than domestic American made film? It's 2025, chemical science has come a long way, I'm sure you can stabilize black and white film for a longer expiry date, or even give a more liberal time frame. We want to shoot more film and give it out to a new generation of film shooters. Help us out and by extension yourselves.



You'd think someone would be listening and poking around websites like this



Do you already drive a rolls? I'm sure if you were a loyal rolls costumer they'd at least listen to you. As a loyal Kodak customer I'd hope they'd listen to the wants of a loyal customer. Otherwise who are they selling to?

Excellent advice! Not really sure why there's not an entry-level Kodak offering in black and white. It's probably that Alaris has a model that says to let it be.
I think that Harman have the best marketing folks. What a couple years ago was ordinary, now Ilford brand is a premium product. Kentmere is the value choice. Harman could bring out a third Ultra premium line, maybe gold plated cassettes

 

[MattKing]

It might be great if the smallest amount of film that Eastman Kodak can make with any reasonable economy wasn't as huge as it is, as expensive to make as it is, and as expensive to distribute as it is.
The minimum size of master roll that they can make without the wastage consuming the potential profit means that short runs of economy film aren't in any way feasible.

 

[MattKing]

Excellent advice! Not really sure why there's not an entry-level Kodak offering in black and white. It's probably that Alaris has a model that says to let it be.
I think that Harman have the best marketing folks. What a couple years ago was ordinary, now Ilford brand is a premium product. Kentmere is the value choice. Harman could bring out a third Ultra premium line, maybe gold plated cassettes

Harman's coater is far smaller than Kodak's, and the equipment for confectioning/finishing - making master rolls into actual user film rolls - is also oriented to much smaller scale. Kodak's colour film volumes are far higher than Harman's film volumes, but Harman has much higher black and white film volumes than Kodak does.
If Harman was selling as much black and white (and now colour) film as Kodak, their costs would be higher than Kodak.

But if Kodak tries to make film in the relatively small batch sizes that correspond to Harman, or even worse the even smaller batch sizes that the low sales volumes of Kodak black and white film would normally justify, than the economies of scale that allow Kodak to keep prices from being worse than they are wouldn't apply.

 

[mshchem]

Harman's coater is far smaller than Kodak's, and the equipment for confectioning/finishing - making master rolls into actual user film rolls - is also oriented to much smaller scale. Kodak's colour film volumes are far higher than Harman's film volumes, but Harman has much higher black and white film volumes than Kodak does.
If Harman was selling as much black and white (and now colour) film as Kodak, their costs would be higher than Kodak.

Yep, and Harman coats paper on the same machine.

I betcha that EK could figure it out if Alaris wanted it. I agree that the machine in Rochester isn't setup for small runs.

I'm getting ready to start spooling 20 exposure rolls. I have TMY-2 and TMX on hand. Double X too. I may pick up some Kentmere 200, been shooting the Kentmere in 120, nice stuff.

 

[Hassasin]

I ain't wrong am I?

Flood the market with super cheap budget film. We're talking deep deep discounted film, make the goal to get film into every photographers hands. Rebuild the market like that. I'm sure Kodak can crank out some super cheap recipe from the archives and lower the standard a few bars. Sell it for what it is and have development tied to Kodak developing in the price. I'm sure those old monopoly laws are ripe for overturning when it comes to film.

I agree analog market is small and could be made larger by making affordable film. Foma is too expensive already to attract needed volume to make a sizeable dent in what is small interest in analog shooting.

What has been happening over last few years with some "stability" in film sales, it is not increasing to levels needed and make film a wow investment opportunity. Adox can't fix their system just to produce 120 film ? And it's an established brand with good film, yet no interests, no helping hands ?

Film in general remains niche on every level. It has made no inroads back into commerical photography. Few wedding photographers who use film have no impact. Art world may help stability at current levels, yet there are no signs there is a new wave in the waiting room. And once the "elderly" will start dropping out in droves in some 10-15 years, who is going to support this market?

To me there would have to be decent quality film available at 90s prices to make a hopeful change to required production volumes. There would have to be wide spread advertising to make millions aware there is a way other than digital.

What is needed is Ronco style TV sales pitch, you get one roll for $10, but wait .. there is more, if you buy now, you will get two extra rolls for the same $10, but wait ... if you call within next 15 minutes, we will double our offer and you get not one, not three, but SIX rolls of this highest quality film for the same $10, So call now, our phone lines are open.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I agree analog market is small and could be made larger by making affordable film. Foma is too expensive already to attract needed volume to make a sizeable dent in what is small interest in analog shooting.

I don't get it.

Film is already dirt cheap. It's no more expensive than it was back in the 90's as far as I can see, when you bring to account cost of living and wage increases.
It's dropped to less than half the price here than it was 3 years ago.

Yes it's not $5, but neither is a dozen eggs $1, or a six pack of beer $3.

How much does it cost to fill up your car compared to a roll of film?

Photo paper expensive? Well inkjet photo paper costs about the same.

Nothing to see here.

 

[Hassasin]

Is it just me seeing every argument for meeting a few against in responses? And every single one, for and against, is pure speculation. What it means is that more on here chose to be sceptics. It's like reading through a social experiment, just to see where our minds stand. I mean it gets so bad at times, than even comparison to a Rolls Roys pop in.

They do sell happy pills.

 

[Hassasin]

I don't get it.

Film is already dirt cheap. It's no more expensive than it was back in the 90's as far as I can see, when you bring to account cost of living and wage increases.
It's dropped to less than half the price here than it was 3 years ago.

Yes it's not $5, but neither is a dozen eggs $1, or a six pack of beer $3.

How much does it cost to fill up your car compared to a roll of film?

Photo paper expensive? Well inkjet photo paper costs about the same.

Nothing to see here.

Dirt cheap ? It's prohibitively expensive at its current lowest price to attract large waves of new users, needed to stop talking about short runs, lack of scale economy being applicable. You can get 64GB SD card for the price of one cheap roll.

What are those other comparisons for?

It's what I mean when I say, people are for some strange reason just negative about the concept of enlarging film offer and find all kinds of arguments, mostly not remotely applicable.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Dirt cheap ? It's prohibitively expensive at its current lowest price to attract large waves of new users,

If they are interested they will find a way and budget for it - just like I did as a teenager.

But honestly, a niche like film photography will *never* find waves of new users.
Sure there is a current fad attraction, some of whom will stick around but for the rest, smartphones have replaced even P&S digital.

That is why Kodak are smart enough to not start up new production.
At the moment they are just miking what they can out of a fad.

 

[BrianShaw]

If anyone at Kodak is reading this first off Hi. I worked on campus back in '14. Fun times. Tell the gang hello.

Crickets…

 

[reddesert]

I think the problem is they will have to make new cameras too since most of the originals have been turned into lamps and sold on Etsy.

What is remarkable is that if you look at a site like shopgoodwill, there are still old Kodak instant cameras being unearthed and donated to (inflicted on) charity shops. Those cameras have been essentially bricks for almost 40 years. It is a testimony to the near-infinite storage capacity of the American basement.

 

[mshchem]

I agree that film has become a luxury item. Part of the reason why Pentax decided on half frame for the Pentax 17. I suspect that this camera may be the end for Pentax film cameras.

When younger folks are trying to figure out how to pay rent pretty hard to get too excited about film.

Consider E6 film and the economics get absolutely nuts.