Worthy pursuit? Landscape astrophotography (untracked) on negative film using Mamiya 645 Pro

Rachelle · Sep 20, 2024

I've been researching on shooting untracked stars with landscape in Utah's Arches National Park using 120 negative film with Mamiya 645 Pro-TL and Sekor 45mm f.2.8 lens (and maybe Sekor 80mm f/1.9). Most of the online information or examples about landscape astrophotography is more applicable to digital photography.

Can you please share film relevant advice, experience, or a "recipe" for this untracked stars with landscape concept?
Will my only good quality film results be of star trails with the landscape?
What are the best film exposure rules for avoiding star trails to consider - 600 rule?
Should the film be pushed at development (1/1000s is the highest on Mamiya 645 Pro-TL)?

- I'm knowledgeable about the general setup: tripod, mirror lock-up, shutter release cable, milkyway app (I have PhotoPills), red light.
- I'm content with having beautiful stars in my shots. I'm not aiming for the milky way galactic center, full arch, etc in my shots.
- I don't want to use a star tracker because I wouldn't be using this device much in the future.
- I've been researching on use of 800 iso colour film negatives. I currently shoot with Kodak rather than CineStill. Available slide films are more expensive and seems to require very long exposures which would make my non-photographer travel partner miserable.
- Though I love shooting on black and white film, I don't prefer this approach for landscape astrophotography.
- I'll be shooting during the end of the "milky way season."

Before I potentially abandon this technical challenge idea for this trip, I would greatly appreciate your input as an informed decision maker. Thank you!

abruzzi · Sep 20, 2024

one issue you'll have is reciprocity failure. I've never done this on film for that reason. I can give you an example in digital. This is really unedited:

Exposure is ISO 800, ƒ8, 2min 7 sec. If you go wide open on an ƒ4 lens you gain 2 stops, so 2min drops to maybe 30 seconds, which will have less reciprocity failure. The glow in the distand are the lights from Moab, and the light under the arch was somone else doing light painting while I was shooting. (sorry for posting digital, but if this camera--Pentax K1ii--is accurate on ISO setting it would give a starting point to get similar results.)

I would add that a) you need to do some tests, and b) after researhing films, mu understanding is that while 100 ISO seems bad, Provia has the same resistance to reciprocity failure that Acros has. So it MAY not require much more time than another film with significant failure.

OAPOli · Sep 20, 2024

I've done some astrophotography, tracked & untracked, film & digital.

A decent base exposure on digital would be f2.0, ISO 1600, 30s. But even that gives faint pictures, and you need to stack multiple frames to get good detail. And 30s is about the max you can expose on a wide angle to avoid star trails.

I've used Fuji 400H and Acros II, which have good reciprocity characteristics, with claimed effective ISOs of 200 and 50 for long exposures. But to get good detail like that of a stacked process you need to exposure more than that. Most other films are much worse for reciprocity.

With ISO 200 (400H) and f2.8, you would need a minimum of 8 min exposure. Tracking is the only option for film. I did a 30m tracked shot on 400H, Pentax 6x7 at f/4 and the negative was workable. I would guess that a 2h exposure would have been fine, it's pretty dark up there

In the past I built a DIY tracker. Needs a motor, 3D-printed gears and hardware store parts. About $30.

Rachelle · Sep 20, 2024

abruzzi said:
one issue you'll have is reciprocity failure. I've never done this on film for that reason. I can give you an example in digital. This is really unedited:

Exposure is ISO 800, ƒ8, 2min 7 sec. If you go wide open on an ƒ4 lens you gain 2 stops, so 2min drops to maybe 30 seconds, which will have less reciprocity failure. The glow in the distand are the lights from Moab, and the light under the arch was somone else doing light painting while I was shooting. (sorry for posting digital, but if this camera--Pentax K1ii--is accurate on ISO setting it would give a starting point to get similar results.)

View attachment 379088

I would add that a) you need to do some tests, and b) after researhing films, mu understanding is that while 100 ISO seems bad, Provia has the same resistance to reciprocity failure that Acros has. So it MAY not require much more time than another film with significant failure.

Thanks @abruzzi for sharing your results as a point of reference and the additional input. It's helpful. Unfortunately, I live in a place with a lot of light pollution and wouldn't be able to test any time soon in a location with the right environment conditions. The Moab trip would be my opportunity to test. If I like the results, I'll share. Best wishes to you and your photography work.

reddesert · Sep 20, 2024

With a star tracker, you have to shoot only stars anyway, because it will blur the landscape, right? In my opinion, most of the "Wow!" landscape + many stars photos one sees on the internet are composites - they may be composites of two real photographs, but they're composites.

For untracked, untrailed images, you're limited by the max exposure time to avoid trailing, which as others said is pretty short (30 sec?), so that limits the significance of reciprocity failure.

If you have an interesting foreground, which of course you should be able to find at Arches, then long exposures with the foreground and star trails can be really nice. Depending on the amount of ambient light or moonlight, you can do something simple, like: set camera up, open shutter, leave for 15-60 minutes, come back and close shutter. That can also avoid trying the patience of your travel partner.

Rachelle · Sep 20, 2024

OAPOli said:
I've done some astrophotography, tracked & untracked, film & digital.

A decent base exposure on digital would be f2.0, ISO 1600, 30s. But even that gives faint pictures, and you need to stack multiple frames to get good detail. And 30s is about the max you can expose on a wide angle to avoid star trails.

I've used Fuji 400H and Acros II, which have good reciprocity characteristics, with claimed effective ISOs of 200 and 50 for long exposures. But to get good detail like that of a stacked process you need to exposure more than that. Most other films are much worse for reciprocity.

With ISO 200 (400H) and f2.8, you would need a minimum of 8 min exposure. Tracking is the only option for film. I did a 30m tracked shot on 400H, Pentax 6x7 at f/4 and the negative was workable. I would guess that a 2h exposure would have been fine, it's pretty dark up there

In the past I built a DIY tracker. Needs a motor, 3D-printed gears and hardware store parts. About $30.

@OAPOli - what you've shared verifies what I've been reading. Thanks for your input. I may try a different approach with Delta 3200 if I come across landscape lit with moonlight, which would be the more prominent subject. The stars will be tiny white specs that I might be content with.

Rachelle · Sep 20, 2024

reddesert said:
With a star tracker, you have to shoot only stars anyway, because it will blur the landscape, right? In my opinion, most of the "Wow!" landscape + many stars photos one sees on the internet are composites - they may be composites of two real photographs, but they're composites.

For untracked, untrailed images, you're limited by the max exposure time to avoid trailing, which as others said is pretty short (30 sec?), so that limits the significance of reciprocity failure.

If you have an interesting foreground, which of course you should be able to find at Arches, then long exposures with the foreground and star trails can be really nice. Depending on the amount of ambient light or moonlight, you can do something simple, like: set camera up, open shutter, leave for 15-60 minutes, come back and close shutter. That can also avoid trying the patience of your travel partner.

@reddesert I'm going to attempt to shoot the landscape with star trails under the right conditions and time required. I agree that many of the landscape + milkway posted online are composites. This is what my friends do for their astrophotography. As the only woman and the only one shooting both digital and film amongst photographer friends, I like crafting something different from their work.

loccdor · Sep 20, 2024

I know you said you don't prefer black and white, but I'll just mention I've seen Acros pushed to 400 with decent results. It has the lowest reciprocity failure and I've seen it used to good effect for astrophotography, though they use a tracker. You can add a color tint to the final image, or hand-color. You might be able to push it as far as 800 if you don't mind the high contrast.

jeffreyg · Sep 20, 2024

Check out Dan Zafra on the web Although he leads tours if you scroll around there is a site with info. I suspect it is oriented towards digital it might be helpful.

Rachelle · Sep 20, 2024

Hmmm the MOVE SHOOT MOVE NOMAD Grab & Go Star Tracker is currently on sale. Still a pricey purchase. Weight 430 g. Very tempting...

It's unclear to me how exactly the shutter release mechanism would work when camera is on the star tracker? I use a manual shutter release cable.

MTGseattle · Sep 22, 2024

Mamiya made a couple of infrared remote systems that may work RS401 and RS402. If you can dig up a manual for your camera, it should tell you which accessories are designed for it. The 2 systems both seem bulky to me, and in other threads, people seem to recommend the old-school Kopil, polaroid, etc self-timer devices that thread into the shutter release button.

I think the RS402 was designed for the 645AF series, so I have no idea if the interface cable socket is the same as the 645Pro-TL.

Rachelle · Sep 22, 2024

MTGseattle said:
Mamiya made a couple of infrared remote systems that may work RS401 and RS402. If you can dig up a manual for your camera, it should tell you which accessories are designed for it. The 2 systems both seem bulky to me, and in other threads, people seem to recommend the old-school Kopil, polaroid, etc self-timer devices that thread into the shutter release button.

I think the RS402 was designed for the 645AF series, so I have no idea if the interface cable socket is the same as the 645Pro-TL.

@MTGseattle thank you for the suggestion! I discovered that the RS401 set is for 645 Super, Pro or Pro TL cameras. I'll look into this option, but it look like it's hard to find. Nonetheless, I'd like to see a demo video or description that explains exactly how an analog camera works on a star tracker.

reddesert · Sep 23, 2024

I perhaps do not understand the question. I don't have a Move Shoot Move mount myself. The current Nomad, as far as I can tell, is just a continuous star tracker - you align it properly and it counteracts the rotation of the earth. You can put an analog camera on this and take as short or long an exposure as you can stand, using a normal cable release. However, if you have landscape in the foreground, the landscape will get blurred by motion for any fairly long exposure.

If you had an intervalometer and autowind, you could take a timed series of exposures, but a film camera can only take a small number before running out.

I think the previous Move Shoot Move mount had a timelapse mode, where you could connect the camera to the mount (via the PC sync), use an intervalometer to set up a sequence of many exposures of modest length, and have the mount track during each exposure, then move back to the start position for the next exposure. If you take a whole sequence of exposures like this, you can then turn them into a timelapse movie, where I guess the foreground blur isn't noticeable because each exposure is fairly short, but the stars visibly rotate over the course of the night. Obviously, this is really intended for a digital camera.

OAPOli · Sep 23, 2024

A star tracker works the same way with a digital or film camera. You attach the camera, you align the tracker (this can be tricky; a geared head is preferable), and you turn it on.

You do have to check whether the battery drains on T or B mode and if there is a work around. And medium format cameras can be quite heavy so you need a good tripod.

Rachelle · Sep 23, 2024

reddesert said:
I perhaps do not understand the question. I don't have a Move Shoot Move mount myself. The current Nomad, as far as I can tell, is just a continuous star tracker - you align it properly and it counteracts the rotation of the earth. You can put an analog camera on this and take as short or long an exposure as you can stand, using a normal cable release. However, if you have landscape in the foreground, the landscape will get blurred by motion for any fairly long exposure.

If you had an intervalometer and autowind, you could take a timed series of exposures, but a film camera can only take a small number before running out.

I think the previous Move Shoot Move mount had a timelapse mode, where you could connect the camera to the mount (via the PC sync), use an intervalometer to set up a sequence of many exposures of modest length, and have the mount track during each exposure, then move back to the start position for the next exposure. If you take a whole sequence of exposures like this, you can then turn them into a timelapse movie, where I guess the foreground blur isn't noticeable because each exposure is fairly short, but the stars visibly rotate over the course of the night. Obviously, this is really intended for a digital camera.

@reddesert I'm not familiar with star trackers and currently, the online content seems to be geared towards use with digital cameras. I came across information about star trackers having "automatic DSLR shutter release control" and so I was concerned that my camera didn't meet the minimum technological requirements for star tracker use. This is why I asked if using a shutter release cable works fine.

I initially didn't want to get a star tracker because of the cost and infrequent use of it in the future. Although the MSM Nomad seems to be optimal for my lightweight gear (analog and digital) and for my travel needs.Sometimes I only travel with an analog camera and I don't want to waste film on untracked stars. So now I'm convinced it's worth to have this product even as a astrophotography novice.

MTGseattle · Sep 24, 2024

In my head, I see double exposures as a friend here along with a soft gradient ND filter perhaps? Get a "blue hour" exposure of the scenic or important background, then get setup on the star tracker and get the sky exposed. Possibly flipping the grad nd filter for the second half?

Rachelle · Sep 24, 2024

MTGseattle said:
In my head, I see double exposures as a friend here along with a soft gradient ND filter perhaps? Get a "blue hour" exposure of the scenic or important background, then get setup on the star tracker and get the sky exposed. Possibly flipping the grad nd filter for the second half?

@MTGseattle Yeah, I've been thinking about taking advantage of my options for double and multi exposures. Though I think aligning a graduated ND filter in the dark will be a painstaking task to get right

MTGseattle · Sep 25, 2024

Oh, good point. I always forget about that aspect of those filters.

Bushcat · Sep 25, 2024

If you do go for a star tracker, the Vixen Polarie U can track at siderial, also half siderial to allow "acceptable blur" of both stars and landscape while doubling the exposure time, mean solar, and mean lunar. It also supports shoot-move-shoot, The older model does roughly the same with fewer bells and whistles and no SMS. You might find the user manual useful anyway, since it has guides for suggested exposures as a function of focal length and distance from the celestial equator, for example.

Axelwik · Oct 3, 2024

I did some pointed south in the southern hemisphere (South Island of New Zealand) back in 2020 that came out nice. Nice circle of star trails with a darkish landscape in the foreground. 30 minute exposures on Tmax 400, 6x6 with a 60mm distagon lens wide open. Dark skies down there - the stars are brilliant.

A few years later I mounted the same camera on a friend's tracker about 50 miles from anywhere here in NM with a 250mm Sonnar lens and color print film. Got some nice starscapes with a red nebula. I think it was Ektar 100 and about a 1/2-hour exposure.

Donald Qualls · Oct 3, 2024

I've done this kind of thing (architecture with stars), albeit on Fuji FP3000B -- with ISO 3000, a short enough exposure to positively avoid trailing will still record both brighter stars and streetlight illuminated building fronts. For a dark area of nature, I'm sure you'll be unable to avoid trailing even with a hard push to your film (Cinestill 800D will just about get to 2400 with a three-stop push, but it's hardly worth doing that from the examples I've seen on YouTube).

An alternative option would be to use a tracker (you can build a manual barndoor tracker for about $20 in parts and a couple hours work; it'll give quite decent results with a normal lens), and either start or finish the exposure (depending on what direction your visible horizon is) with a hella big flash to record the landscape (this works best with no Moon, so you don't get a landscape ghost over a lot of sky).

Worthy pursuit? Landscape astrophotography (untracked) on negative film using Mamiya 645 Pro

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