Wondering About Developing Film

I have decided for some fun and because its always so recommended, to add a bottle of Rodinal to my options along with Xtol. I don't know when one would use one over the other, but they are two different results to make it worth the effort. So I will add a bottle of this to my order.

Common acid fixer makes a fine stop bath, but developer carry over shortens the life of your fixer. I guarantee your lab is using an acid stop if they use Xtol.

FWIW, I'm still using a bottle of stop bath I made up from Kodak Indicator Stop Bath concentrate in 2006 or so. It sat in storage all this time, in weather from -10C or lower to above 40C in the storage shed the last five years -- and it's still yellow (the indicator shows it still has the acidity to work as it should). You can use white vinegar, diluted 1+2 with water, but indicator stop bath is actually cheaper, because the indicator lets you reuse it for a long time, and know when it's done. I bought the chemicals to make my own, too -- 75% acetic acid (much cheaper than glacial, and safer to work with) and bromocresol purple (the indicator that goes into it), then found my old bottle of concentrate, so I have a lifetime supply of stop bath (well, probably not, in my experience printing uses it up a lot faster, because more developer carries over and you're developing a lot more area anyway). For film, indicator stop bath is virtually free -- a $6.99 a pint, which makes 8 gallons of working solution, it'll stop hundreds of rolls. Shipping is annoying, though -- it's ORM-D, which means you'll have to order it from a Canadian source and it ships ground only.

Keep checking the top bar of your Photrio pages, I keep seeing ads for a Canadian chemical supplier up there.

I've used Parodinal quite a bit (Rodinal work-alike made from paracetamol aka acetaminophen). What I'd suggest is to use it (instead of diluted Xtol) where you want maximum apparent sharpness, don't mind losing half a stop of film speed, or you're willing to add 40% to recommended dev times and reduce agitation to every 3rd minute to get back that lost speed and another 1/3 stop. It shows its true nature best at the 1:50 dilution. The other place Rodinal shines is at 1:100 with just a single inversion every 15-30 minutes, and standing for an hour to two hours. You'll have grain, but you'll see strong compensation even with the 3-minute agitation cycle, and more so with stand, plus you'll get edge effects that increase apparent sharpness by bumping the local contrast at already high contrast edges.

https://www.beauphoto.com/product/blazinal/

This is the Rodinal I can get. Donald- when would you want to use Rodinal over Xtol in choice? How does it work on slow 25 ISO films? Or would you want to use it with fast films like Tri-X 400? Also being its listed as hazardous, do you have to wear gloves when handling it? What happens if it gets on your skin?

Also if mixing up 500ml of liquid, how much Rodinal is mixed in when either 1:25 or 1:50?

braxus said:

Is there any reason not to get the 3 reel tank over the 2 reel tank? I might get the 3 reel, so 4x5 is an option. Is the 3 reel tank still good even when only doing 1 35mm roll?

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You may want both! I have one each of the 2-, 3-, 5- and 8-reel (135-wise) tanks. I use the smallest tank that fits the batch I am processing.

I find the smaller tanks are easier to handle and I prefer them when I am doing small batches.

I'd pick up another small 2-reel Paterson tank if I didn't also have a small Jobo tank with enough reels (it's my secondary inversion tank for small batches).

Paul Howell said:

What is your no tgoing to use a motor base, I use a Unicolor motor base, but if not and going to manual roll it, back and forth?

I have Bessler, Uncolor, and a off brand similar to Cibachrome, all fit a 8X10 sheet of paper without a clip, on the Bessler need a clip for 2 5X7.

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There's a Beseler motor base that just goes round and round, doesn't reverse. The Unicolor bases I've seen do have the 2 way agitation, perfect
The Beseler reversing base has a weak point, there's a plastic tab that trips the reversing switch inside the enclosure. I've fixed these.
Print drums work great on a reversing motor base for room temperature processing of 8x10 black and white film.

braxus said:

Also what are people doing about silver recovery? Or are you just dumping it down the sink anyway?

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Braxus
If you find out from your local authorities you can only let a certain parts/million of silver down the drain and you need ( or want ) to invest in a silver recovery system there are several ways to go about it. If you develop your film ( or prints ) and use your fixer until it is exhausted ( hypo check drops are not an accurate read but a film clip test tends to be as accurate as test strips that are sold ) you can either do an electrolytic silver removal method or an ion transfer. The electrolytic method allows you to electroplate your silver out of solution onto a cathode, but it leaves about 50 parts/million of silver in the fix. The ion transfer. allows you to pour 1 shot 2 shot or 40shot fixer into a bucket, (wash water too), and it trickles into a reactive metal core ( usually steel wool or iron ) filters out the silver and trades it for iron. That method can get you down to 5 parts / million or less...There may be suppliers of this sort of "stuff" up where you are in Canada. If you run into a bind drop me a PM, I have been selling ( and shipping to Canada ) silver recovery systems for IDK 10-15 years? and if you have questions and I can't answer them I will be happy to ask the manufacturer the answer. A company called ECS might be able to provide you with guidance / insights about silver recovery as well, they are a refiner who will pay you for your cathode when it is full of silver, and your media bucket (steel wool) when it reaches to capacity.

have fun!
John

I dont plan to use a motor if I get the 8x10 tank. Just by hand. Any recommendations there?

braxus said:

https://www.beauphoto.com/product/blazinal/

This is the Rodinal I can get. Donald- when would you want to use Rodinal over Xtol in choice? How does it work on slow 25 ISO films? Or would you want to use it with fast films like Tri-X 400? Also being its listed as hazardous, do you have to wear gloves when handling it? What happens if it gets on your skin?

Also if mixing up 500ml of liquid, how much Rodinal is mixed in when either 1:25 or 1:50?

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I've never bothered with gloves, even when making Parodinal (which involves dissolving lye in water to produce a fairly strong sodium hydroxide solution). I would strongly recommend eye or face protection when handling Rodinal derivatives, however; the concentrate has a pH of 11 or so and enough alkalinity to blind you quickly if it gets in your eye -- a drop too small to trigger your blink reflex can make a permanent opaque spot on your cornea.

The dilutions for Rodinal are given as proportion (1:25, 1:50), which is the same as 1+24 or 1+49. That means for 500 ml of working solution, you'd measure 20ml (for 1:25) or 10ml (for 1:50) of concentrate, then add water to make your 500 ml. Mix, and if your water was already at room temperature, it's ready to use. Don't keep the working solution for a long time -- a half hour to a couple hours seems to be okay, but overnight is definitely bad. I've always mixed it and used it within a few minutes.

I've used Rodinal at 1:100 for microfilm, and 1:50 for Fomapan 400 (examples in one of the other four related threads). IMO, if your film is bigger than 35mm, it works fine for slow or fast films. I've used it for 35mm a lot, however, including pushing Fomapan 100 by two stops, and I still didn't find the grain objectionable -- modern versions of classic named films like Tri-X have been reformulated so many times they don't have the grain they had fifty years ago. When I first started developing and using adjustable cameras, Tri-X in Dektol could be used to remove old paint -- grain like 80 grit sandpaper in quite modest enlargements. Now, Tri-X, even in Rodinal, gives better grain than Plus-X did in D-76 back then.

Occasionally, I wonder what you'd get with Ilford Pan F developed in one of the various Microdol X clones that are around. Could you enlarge 35mm to wall size before you see grain?

Good tips on the eye wear. I wear glasses, but I could invest in goggles I can get from my workplace.

https://www.beauphoto.com/product/paterson-measuring-graduate-45ml/

SO I guess now I need one of these too, for Rodinal mixing.

braxus said:

I dont plan to use a motor if I get the 8x10 tank. Just by hand. Any recommendations there?

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Consider Jobo and the Jobo tanks and drums. While the initial costs are high you can use it for color and black & white. I found that the costs are worth it because I can get consistent scratch free results every time. Since your photographs are consistently good, would you not want to be sure that the film development is consistently good?

braxus said:

I dont do a whole ton of B&W rolls per year, so the cost of using Xtol is not prohibiting me from using it. That said I might shoot more if I'd be doing my own developing, so its hard to say.

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And bulk loading can reduce the cost of b/w substantially. I've shot a lot of 24-frame rolls on a 50 USD spool of fomapan 200, and tbh I don't really miss other B/W films that much.

I was hesitant about bulk loading, but then I found a Watson Model 100 bulk roller at a thrift store in Mobile for 4 USD

braxus said:

Good tips on the eye wear. I wear glasses, but I could invest in goggles I can get from my workplace.

https://www.beauphoto.com/product/paterson-measuring-graduate-45ml/

SO I guess now I need one of these too, for Rodinal mixing.

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Your regular eyeglasses are most likely no protection at all (unless they have top and side shields, like the ones companies buy for machine operators and the like).

And yes, that's a good way to measure your concentrate. I bought a couple 100 ml horse dosing syringes from Amazon (no needle, not even an attachment lock for a needle, just for dosing liquids to animals). And then found out they won't reach into any of my storage bottles.

However, I've got the 1960 Kodak version of that on my shelf; it's conical, like a measuring cup, and graduated in 10 ml increments to 250 ml. Made of some kind of clear, hard plastic. If I need smaller amounts, I've also got a couple smaller syringes. I hadn't used it for a good while (my old Parodinal storage was a pickle jar, and I could get my syringes into it), but I'm finding it's convenient for measuring replenishment for my Xtol. That 45ml, though, is just right for Rodinal concentrate. Big enough to make up a liter at 1:25, doesn't need to be any bigger than that.

RLangham said:

I was hesitant about bulk loading, but then I found a Watson Model 100 bulk roller at a thrift store in Mobile for 4 USD

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Not doubt about the savings. A roll of Fomapan 400 (under the .EDU Ultra label) is US$51 (and free shipping, if you get it the right place -- B&H, as I recall); that'll produce 17 rolls of 36 exposures (including leader and a couple frames of fogged tail with a Watson type), which makes a 30% discount off the same film already in cassettes. Similar savings apply for Kodak and Ilford, too. I don't think Fuji offers bulk rolls any more -- they have so little B&W anyway, and bulk color seems to be pretty much gone.

Donald Qualls said:

BTW, I agree that Dektol (=D-72) works nicely on film (Kodak has recommended 1+9 dilution for film for eight decades or so). It's not as smooth-grained as D-76 because it has much less sulfite, and it's faster working because it uses carbonate accelerator rather than borax (like D-76 and Xtrol) -- but if you're printing too, there might be a certain amount of convenience in being able to mix and store just a single developer for both film and paper.

BTW, if storage containers are a limitation, I can confirm that commercial Dektol can be mixed in half the suggested amount of water at the temperature called out -- I've done it -- and the resulting double strength stock solution will keep in airtight containers for an extraordinary length of time. I have some I mixed that way (from expired powder) around 2005 and it was still good as of a few weeks ago.

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Good to know!

I've never used 1-9 and I've only used 1-7 once. The vast majority of B/W work I've done, where fine grain is not critical (but contrast is) I've done in 1-3 Dek, which comes out to about 2 oz. plus water to do one roll of 35 in a Paterson, or about twice that much to fill a Rondinax to the top. Any less would be hard for me to measure!

Anyways, 1-3 works out to three minutes for most standard medium speed B/W films, 1-7 works out to seven minutes for the same films, so does 1-9 work out to 9 minutes? I'm always wary of assuming something is a rule of thumb when it might just be a coincidence.

Donald Qualls said:

Not doubt about the savings. A roll of Fomapan 400 (under the .EDU Ultra label) is US$51 (and free shipping, if you get it the right place -- B&H, as I recall); that'll produce 17 rolls of 36 exposures (including leader and a couple frames of fogged tail with a Watson type), which makes a 30% discount off the same film already in cassettes. Similar savings apply for Kodak and Ilford, too. I don't think Fuji offers bulk rolls any more -- they have so little B&W anyway, and bulk color seems to be pretty much gone.

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And of course you don't win quite as much when you're doing 24-frame rolls (higher proportion of wasted film) but the convenience of shorter rolls means I sometimes do anyways. I must be coming up on the end of my second spool pretty soon.

RLangham said:

And of course you don't win quite as much when you're doing 24-frame rolls (higher proportion of wasted film) but the convenience of shorter rolls means I sometimes do anyways. I must be coming up on the end of my second spool pretty soon.

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But what you do win is the ability to roll really short rolls when you just need to, for instance, test a new-to-you camera, or developer, or technique. Sometimes a roll of 12 (including leader) is just right -- but those are really hard to buy. They're really easy to roll, though. Also handy if you have a half-frame...

RLangham said:

Anyways, 1-3 works out to three minutes for most standard medium speed B/W films, 1-7 works out to seven minutes for the same films, so does 1-9 work out to 9 minutes? I'm always wary of assuming something is a rule of thumb when it might just be a coincidence

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yes the code is 1:time for time minutes
ansco130 also works great in this way for films and prints ( and s smidgen in caffenol to make it better ( and prolly makes weak-contrast/density Xtol better too, although never tried it ) IMHO )
and 130 has a shelf life of over a year as untilute/stock. dektol/d72 does not last anywhere near that long as a stock solution
probably easier to use dektol ( but be advised new bags sometimes mix up like chocolate milk brown these days )
not sure how busy the formulary is or if they are still regularly making glyin the magical ingredient in ansco130
( and from all reports the formulary are the last place left that still makes it )...

Donald Qualls said:

But what you do win is the ability to roll really short rolls when you just need to, for instance, test a new-to-you camera, or developer, or technique. Sometimes a roll of 12 (including leader) is just right -- but those are really hard to buy. They're really easy to roll, though. Also handy if you have a half-frame...

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By coincidence I just tested an Olympus Pen EES 3 with a stuck aperture that someone gave me, using a roll of twelve! Cute camera even if I can only use it in bright light. I want a Mercury II half frame eventually... had to pass on one a while back.

jnantz said:

( and from all reports the formulary are the last place left that still makes it )...

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Yeah, time sure does wound all heels, doesn't it?

Whoa -- glycin down to one supplier? I wonder what the jar of it in my shed is going to be worth now?

braxus said:

https://www.beauphoto.com/product/blazinal/

This is the Rodinal I can get. Donald- when would you want to use Rodinal over Xtol in choice? How does it work on slow 25 ISO films? Or would you want to use it with fast films like Tri-X 400? Also being its listed as hazardous, do you have to wear gloves when handling it? What happens if it gets on your skin?

Also if mixing up 500ml of liquid, how much Rodinal is mixed in when either 1:25 or 1:50?

Click to expand...

When I last used Efke I used Rondinal, seems an old fashioned emulsion matched well with an old fashioned developer, personally I don't like Rondinal with fast films, grain is too pronounced. I currently use Rodinal with Tmax 100, Ultrafine 100 or Foma 100 or 200. When mixing for a single roll in a Patterson I mix 1:50 so 500ml distilled water and 10 Ml Rodinal. Rodinal is not hazardous, I use MCM 100 which is toxic and use gloves, safety glasses, and an apron, at this point I use gloves with all my chemistry.

I haven't tried them yet, but this is what I plan to experiment with next to store chemicals:
https://www.amazon.ca/Foldable-Coll...THT8V2G7GBK&psc=1&refRID=FFR0HVZ3TTHT8V2G7GBK
So far I haven't been able to determine what material they are made of, but the caps seem fine and they stand up on their own when filled.

Donald Qualls said:

Whoa -- glycin down to one supplier? I wonder what the jar of it in my shed is going to be worth now?

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well you can get it from other sources but PF makes it, and other people buy it from them, its been that way for at least. 20 years. not sure your glycin in your shed is worth much unless it was hermetically sealed and frozen because as you know when it isn't grayish white .. well sometimes there is trouble with potency...

RLangham said:

Yeah, time sure does wound all heels, doesn't it?

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yup, you ain't just whistling dixie....
I hope they continue to make it ( every 2 weeks from what I understand ), and my wishes of good health go out to the PF, I know they might have been closed for a while when the pandemic was in full effect, I hope they are well.

jnantz said:

well you can get it from other sources but PF makes it, and other people buy it from them, its been that way for at least. 20 years. not sure your glycin in your shed is worth much unless it was hermetically sealed and frozen because as you know when it isn't grayish white .. well sometimes there is trouble with potency...

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Actually, I don't know at all. I got the glycin in a box with some other chemicals from another user who was dropping home processing. It's been stored at room temp, then for the past five years in a shed with temps ranging from well below freezing to above 40C/105F. It's in a dark jar, so I have no idea what the actual chemical looks like; I just know the jar is labeled "glycin".

Donald Qualls said:

It's been stored at room temp, then for the past five years in a shed with temps ranging from well below freezing to above 40C/105F. It's in a dark jar

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I guess you just need to try it
"mortenson's glycin variant". might be a good way to see if yours still has enough energizer bunny in it to do the trick looks super ez to make ... but be careful if zonies find out what you are doing, you might be labelled Beelzebub for channelling in your inner 7D...
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/glycin-fresh-glycin-what-developers-to-make-with-it.12698/
It's towards the top of the page in clay's post. its just water, sodium carbonate, sulfite and glycin ...