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Will Water House Stops work with the Leitz Epis 5.6 1000 mm? SK Grimes Isn't Sure

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Qebs

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Hello everybody,

I sent my lens to SK GRIMES and the reported back upon inspection they aren't sure .
:

Here is the first part of their email describing their results from the inspection.

"I gave the lens an initial examination. The barrel is to parts that
thread away from each other and inside there are two spacers between
three optics. This make the prospect of a waterhouse stop set
problematic. Other lens design have a distinct front and rear group to
position between. With a center optic an 'iris' may not be effect or the
opens we make in the waterhouse stops may not be accurate given the
calculations we make. The split does make adding slot easier, but the
internal configuration complicates matters."


Do you think this is a lost cause? Should I just have the lens sent back?

Thanks for reading this.
And thanks for any advice you can offer.


Be well

Best regards,
Kevin H.
 

physixvox

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The Epis series, like most episcope lenses, is a Cooke triplet design. Usually in these (like also the TTH Cooke Series II), the aperture is positioned close to the negative center element, on its rear side. That's also true in descendents of the triplet design which have doublets for the front and/or back positives (Heliar, Saphir etc.).

Triplet designs are in general not completely symmetrical, and they are calculated in a way that the negative center element is slightly stronger than the front positive, so the beam is slightly diverging behind the center element.

Apertures are usually placed in the optical center of a lens, i.e. the point where the chief rays of all pencils of rays intersect. Doing it this way makes so that every pencil of rays is affected the same way by the aperture (and it doesn't cause vignetting). Placing the aperture outside the optical center usually isn't very much of a problem though. You will have two effects: introduce vignetting in pencils that come in from the extremest angles, and for out-of-focus objects "moving the cutout of the bokeh ball inwards or outwards from the axis", therefore affecting the distortion characteristics of the lens.

When only having the aperture slightly off center (i.e.: directly behind the negative element), the effect will be minimal. Historically though, aperture positioning has in fact been used artistically (cf.: Eder, Ausführliches Handbuch der Photographie 1,4: Die photographischen Objektive. - chapters on the simple lens and the Petzval).
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/449451/52?tx_dlf_navigation[controller]=Navigation&tx_dlf_tableofcontents[action]=main&tx_dlf_tableofcontents[controller]=TableOfContents&cHash=516a4004ec135b499b0cce24d375c4d5

For the lens in question here:
- you're probably quite lucky you have a barrel design that can be screwed into two parts. The two Epis 1000mm I have (an f/3.5 and an f/4.8) have the helicoid tube design, they can't be screwed apart (only taking out the elements by screwing out their retaining rings).
- the argument that "the opens we make in the waterhouse stops may not be accurate given the calculations we make" is bs. Simply write down a ray transfer matrix analysis for that system. I.e.: Measure the focal length of the front element and the negative middle element roughly, the distance between front and middle, and the distance between middle and desired aperture position. Simplify the system matrix as: (free propagation between middle element and aperture)*(middle element as thin lens)*(free propagation between front and middle element)*(front element as thin lens). Then you're inputting a ray of (x0, 0), calculating what the x1 at the aperture is. Then plug in an aperture number N=f/x0 into that, and you find an equation for x1 (in terms of a diameter then) at any aperture number N. Not hard, just half an hour of actually writing down the math.
You could also simplify further, using just (free propagation between front and middle element)*(front element as thin lens) as matrix (would save you the hassle of measuring the negative element).
- because your barrel can be screwed apart: you could, instead of cutting the barrel for Waterhouse, go the route of washer stops instead (essentially: 3D print a set of half-cylinder/can-shaped parts that you can insert directly into the barrel that include different apertures)
- or: you could even experiment with just putting the aperture in front or behind the lens, depending on the format you want to shoot. Either just essentially cardboard pieces with aperture holes or 3D printed hollow cylinders, or these airflow aperture irisses like this that you can find at any hardware store: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Airflow-Regulator-Shutter-Stopper-Exhaust/dp/B084LJBKQ8?th=1
I think the last option would be the least hassle. If it's too much vignetting, you can still go the more


Much success,
Ferdinand

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Qebs

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Thank you so much, deeply, for your time and help.

Sorry, I put dealing with the lens in the back of my mind, as the lens is going to be at SK Grimes, until the duty tax people view the lens, after which I can get the lens back.

The lens will be for portraits using direct positive processes.

I was hoping to get Ilford Ortho Plus ISO 80, but sadly I only recently realized it's part of that once a year program where you special order film.
I'm not sure that is sustainable for my studio.

Meaning, if I'm left using darkroom negative paper, there is no need for apertures as, I can't increase my light amount much more, neither do I dare go longer with shutter speeds.
I might just have SK Grimes send the lens back though I really would love the creative control and freedom that waterhouse stops will provide. More importantly if I did get some sort of affordable 20x24" film at ISOs around 100, I could really stop down and nail sharpness.
I would love to be able to do this for my clients.

I'm starting to think SK Grimes can't do the job, they are asking me for resources to help find the point to mount the water house stops.
I'm not sure if I should risk paying for work they aren't sure they can do. And there was a mishap where they broke the threads that the lens has. I never received an apology only assurances they would fix the problem, which is great but just not the customer relations I was expecting from a well known and respected company.

Do you all think I will get suitable sharpness at f/5.6 20x24" full body plus another head in heigh above the subject and below the subject?
I calculated the DoF in the past, I dont remember what it was, but it's mm's. I just don't know if I will find it sharp enough to be able to ethically sell.

Thanks again physixvox
Happy New year.
 
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