Will Harman prices increase next month ?

damien · Mar 1, 2009

Pat Erson said:
A 30% increase?

between 15 and 30% ; it's a very high percentage, that's why I'm surprised, beside I haven't heard about it before fridray

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2009

The thread prompted me to place a large order for film.

Surprisingly the cheapest Ilford Delta 100 & 400 in the UK was from an APUG sponsor, making it extremely competitive, only Fomapan 100 or 200 was cheaper from that suppler, and although cheaper elsewhere postage charges from my other suppliers would have narrowed the gap substantially to within a few pence of the Delta films (in 120)
.
I switched back to using Ilford films about 14 months ago, after a gap of around 20 years, I've yet to switch Fibre based papers but any price rises will definitely affect my decision, the Polywarmtone paper I'm using is no longer available so I have to find a replacement. So when I place my next large order, when I return to the UK next month, price will be a major factor in my choice.

Let's hope Ilford keep their price rises sensible so that they don't price themselves out of the market.

Ian

Prest_400 · Mar 1, 2009

damien said:
between 15 and 30% ; it's a very high percentage, that's why I'm surprised, beside I haven't heard about it before fridray

Fuji did raise a 5% some months ago. But 30%, is too much. Something big has to happen for this.
No word from Simon, though. If he says nothing, then it's not official. I don't believe this until Simon says something.

eclarke · Mar 1, 2009

pentaxuser said:
Harman prices have increased considerably in the U.K. quite recently at a time when we enter a recession. I had put this down to increasing raw material prices working their way through to the consumer at a time when it unfortunately coincided with a time when you'd expect prices to fall to attract more custom. I was hoping that as raw material prices began to drop as most do in a recession then prices would stabilise for quite some time.

If this rumour is right we seem to have been caught in a pincher movement. About a year ago or maybe less Ilford Postcard paper could be bought for about £14. Now the cheapest is about £24.

A box of 10x8 WT RC paper is getting very expensive indeed.

If this rumour is correct then I for one will review my usage

pentaxuser

Silver isn't dropping!!..EC

PhotoJim · Mar 1, 2009

damien said:
sorry, I prefer not to tell what is my source

Then this is only a rumour, and I'm not going to worry about it until we hear something more concrete.

Pat Erson · Mar 1, 2009

What *should* happen in an ideal world is Ilford export prices should decrease because the UK Pound has taken a serious nosedive in the last few weeks against the Euro (and against the USD too probably). Unless the middlemen suck up the difference...

Toffle · Mar 1, 2009

Back at the beginning of January I was told by my most reliable retail source that here in Canada prices for essentially all photographic materials will be rising a minimum of 15% across the board. My understaning is that this is a product of many things, none of which I view as serious gouging or profit taking. There is no single solution to what has become a global economic crisis. My own knowledge of economics ends somewhere between Malthus and Keynes, so anything I could offer would be merely platitudes. The cost of running any business in these times has producers and retailers on a razor thin edge between solvency and financial ruin. They are faced with rising costs, which necessitates raising the prices they must charge in the hopes of returning to profitability before all their assets have been consumed. Many businesses have been bleeding red ink since before the current economic downturn, and have the slimmest of hopes of holding on until the tides turn. Some businesses will fail. Hopefully, enough will survive so that entire industries will not be marginalized. (I hope I'm not talking about every manufacturing market on the planet)

Analogue photography is a niche market. We will face very uncertain times. We must choose where and how to spend our money wisely... which may mean allowing our market to contract to a point where there are only a few suppliers in a few cities to supply the needs for the entire world. (in some areas, this is already our reality)

The only real advice I can offer is to spend what you can, buy what you can, buy what you hope to see on the shelves again tomorrow, or next year. Products that don't sell will disappear. Products that do sell, may hold on until markets improve.

End of rant...

Regards,

Martin Aislabie · Mar 1, 2009

Pat Erson said:
What *should* happen in an ideal world is Ilford export prices should decrease because the UK Pound has taken a serious nosedive in the last few weeks against the Euro (and against the USD too probably). Unless the middlemen suck up the difference...

Silver like most commodities is traded in US Dollars

Martin

Ian Grant · Mar 1, 2009

billschwab said:
Exactly. Four pages of speculation and jumping to conclusions (even "placing a large order for film") based upon an unknown person, unwilling to reveal their source, with their very first post to APUG?

The order for film would have been placed anyway, but with extremely low bank interest rates and a probable price rise in the pipeline it's just prudent to buy now and not in 4-8 weeks time. If I happen to have saved money the chances are it'll be spent on more photographic materials anyway.

One thing it isn't is a panic buy, I can't get 120 Ilford Delta 400 here in Turkey, if I order it the distributors will just send HP5, so common sense says buy now ready for my next visit to the UK. I placed a similar (slightly smaller) order last year which was delayed while the supplier waited for stock from Mobberley, this year I don't want to run out of film & have to buy Fomapan locally.

Ilford raised their prices in the UK last Spring so if they run true to form the annual price rises are due soon. That's common sense not speculation.

Ian

Markus Röhling · Mar 1, 2009

Martin Aislabie said:
Silver like most commodities is traded in US Dollars

But there is almost no silver in photographic products! The silver price makes only a very small part of the production costs.

Markus

Moopheus · Mar 1, 2009

Markus Röhling said:
The silver price makes only a very small part of the production costs.

Markus

Also, while silver has been rising in the past few weeks, it is still well below the peak price of a year or so back. Even $12-13/oz seems like a break compared to the $18-20/oz it was for a while.

Simon R Galley · Mar 2, 2009

Dear All,

Firstly, let me deal with the 'big' picture :

HARMAN technology Limited have NO plans to increase the prices of our ILFORD Photo products in the USA / Europe / Rest Of The World : The last price rises in the USA were in February 2008 ( 3.00% on average ) and in Europe and rest of the World ( 4.00% on average ) on May 1st 2008.

We obviously must reserve the right to do so, but as I say no plans at present for 2009, we must also reserve the right to adjust certain products where we have a major raw material increase impact, this happens from time to time and due notice is given.

We have introduced a variable by product wholesaler price increase in the UK, which will see prices increase, probably in the next couple of months, but no where near 30.00%. The biggest increase is likely to be seen on 120 roll film. Even after these increases, prices in our home market the UK are, and remain, very competitive if you look at worldwide retail pricing levels of our products.

Again, we have some 'speculation' about why our prices rise, well I am happy to give the situation as we actually experience it : We source many of our biggest raw material purchases from Europe,we have to as we have no UK supplier(s), we have faced increases from those manufacturers along with very significant decline in the value of the £ v the Euro so in effect we have the 'double whammy'. Where, in reverse, we have some exchange rate benefits it has enabled us NOT to increase prices. HARMAN technology does everything in its power to control its costs and NOT to increase prices.

Somebody mentioned the price of silver not being hugely important, try buying it by the tonne! Silver is a major raw material for us and whilst it has reduced from the high of $ 20.00 + per ounce its still over $ 13.00when we started this business in February 2005 we were buying just over $ 6.00 per ounce.

As I have said, we have done everything we can to hold prices but the UK has had to go up.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Muihlinn · Mar 2, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
HARMAN technology Limited have NO plans to increase the prices

then, as I said, all the noise was just whining to the wind...

Tom Kershaw · Mar 2, 2009

then, as I said, all the noise was just whining to the wind...

Not exactly, but thank you Simon for fully explaining the situation.

Tom.

Ian Grant · Mar 2, 2009

Muihlinn said:
then, as I said, all the noise was just whining to the wind...

Why don't you READ the posts properly before making comments like that. Just because the rises don't affect you there's no reason to dismiss them, APUG is an International Forum with many UK members & subscribers.

There are prices rises in the UK just as the OP said, and there was a link to a UK supplier saying rises of up to 15-20%:

Simon R Galley said:
We have introduced a variable by product wholesaler price increase in the UK, which will see prices increase, probably in the next couple of months, but no where near 30.00%. The biggest increase is likely to be seen on 120 roll film. Even after these increases, prices in our home market the UK are, and remain, very competitive if you look at worldwide retail pricing levels of our products.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

So the fact's back up the informed speculation in the thread. Lets just hope the rises aren't too much.

Ian

Muihlinn · Mar 2, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Why don't you READ the posts properly before making comments like that. [...]

Why don't you read my previous posts properly BEFORE taking the war path?

I'm kinda sicked of all such whining, moaning and complaining every time that a little cloud is seen in the horizon, but what it hurts is overreaction of people - who I used to respect - thinking that everything is said about them, about their comments or just said by people who cannot see beyond his nose.

Steve Roberts · Mar 2, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
Somebody mentioned the price of silver not being hugely important, try buying it by the tonne!
Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

"Silver by the Ton" was the title of Ilford's centenary book (and well worth tracking down) but Simon's comment prompts me to wonder whether the next publication will have to be "Silver by the Tonne" to satisfy the metrificators!

Steve

tim_walls · Mar 2, 2009

Steve Roberts said:
"Silver by the Ton" was the title of Ilford's centenary book (and well worth tracking down) but Simon's comment prompts me to wonder whether the next publication will have to be "Silver by the Tonne" to satisfy the metrificators!

The most common measure of significant weights among one's generation is actually the 'metric shedload'. As in, "I'm helping Tim move his darkroom this weekend - he has a metric shedload of rubbish in there."

Actually, common usage is a different four-letter-word-starting-with-sh-load, but this is of course a family forum... "Silver by the Metric Sh**load" would certainly lend a more contemporary feel to the tome, though.

Markus Röhling · Mar 2, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
Somebody mentioned the price of silver not being hugely important, try buying it by the tonne! Silver is a major raw material for us and whilst it has reduced from the high of $ 20.00 + per ounce its still over $ 13.00when we started this business in February 2005 we were buying just over $ 6.00 per ounce.

Yes, but how many films you can make with one ounce of silver?

Markus Röhling

Simon R Galley · Mar 2, 2009

Dear Markus,

You can make lots of film with an ounce of silver, and you are quite correct its not the biggest cost in film or paper products : I can go on about the other increasing costs, but the rises are most certainly real.

As to some other comments, the rise in the UK is regrettable but neccesary, and I confirm NO other markets are affected.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Prest_400 · Mar 2, 2009

Steve Roberts said:
"Silver by the Ton" was the title of Ilford's centenary book (and well worth tracking down)

Another book to search for.
Interesting, I just ended on Alfred Harman article on wiki. Kodak wanted to merge with ilford in the very early 1900s. Didn't know about.

Well, At least we know that Ilford/Harman (I just always say Ilford...) won't do that big rise in prices.
At least two film companies have risen prices within a year time, Fuji and Ilford. I believe it's normal that this is happening.
Thanks Ilford for support traditional Photography in such solid way, and I hope that this company will stand still in this hard times.

pentaxuser · Mar 2, 2009

I wonder if we'll get to the "grey import" situation with this latest increase in the U.K. Back about 20 yrs ago Ford found that U.K. dealers were importing parts from European dealers because the price differential meant that it was cheaper for U.K. dealers to pay the european dealer prices than buy direct from Ford. A similar thing happened with cars whereby companies would specialise in helping customers to order lefthand drive vehicles from the cheaper european dealers and import into the U.K. for a smaller price than U.K. dealers were charging.

On a very cursory check with Fotoimpex it seems that currently Ilford products are still cheaper here in the U.K. but as there will be no price increase in Europe then it wouldn't take much of an increase to make it cheaper to import Ilford materials from a non U.K. stockist.

Grey imports only work if the home market customers are in essence being overcharged and Simon has the price increases in the U.K. market are necessary.

We can only wait and see what happens but if U.K. stockists use this as a "green light" to push up prices by unreasonable amounts then I can only hope that customers vote with their feet. Have a look at "cheap" e-bay for paper prices where some powersellers are charging way in excess of some regular mail order suppliers.

It's a strange world that is full of otherwise deflationary trends, including predictions that inflation may yet hit zero later this year and yet photographic materials has been bucking this trend on the high street for many months and is about to buck it still further.

Boy, have we moved into a "caveat emptor" era with a vengeance.

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Mar 2, 2009

Pentax,

I would speculate that there is some lag in terms of materials and operating costs, and that specialist supplies or activities may not operate exactly in-sync with the mass market, e.g. sales of Vauxhall Astra cars.

Tom.

Ian Grant · Mar 2, 2009

When I saw this thread last night I searched around my suppliers and a UK APUG sponsor had by far the cheapest Ilford film prices UK/EU, perhaps I could buy cheaper if I searched harder but I'd rather give my business to a good reliable supplier. I do use Fotoimpex for some products but with the rise in the Euro against the Pound they aren't that competitive on Ilford films, and I've been using Silverprint for my Ilford films since switching back to them 14 months ago.

We're let down time after time by poor ;photographic retailers in the UK, Jessops in particular, but there are still a small handful of good suppliers out there. You are right though about the rip-off Power sellers/stores on Ebay often charging higher than normal retail prices, but again there are a small number who are excellent.

Ian

erikg · Mar 2, 2009

tim_walls;761634 Actually said:
Ha! I think you just gave us the title for an Apug group show: "Pictures by the Metric Sh**load"!

More to the topic at hand, I believe it was reported that in the US the inflation rate last quarter was at 0%. I'm wondering what prices are down because I'm sure not seeing it. Very glad Ilford is able to hold the line as well as they do.

Will Harman prices increase next month ?

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