Will film be banned?

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 26, 2021

What if the government decides that film is too wasteful? All those chemicals and everything polluting the environment. Would you support the cancellation of film like fossil fuels will be stopped in automobiles? What should we do to protect our hobby?

MartinCrabtree · Apr 26, 2021

In a word........Hollywood. I'm well aware many use digital but others.........big names in fact prefer film. Still don't believe it will come to that. There are many other far more wasteful and destructive things in widespread use so film is way down the list.

Kino · Apr 26, 2021

I don't know of any such push or program to do as much, so I don't know why I should worry about it.

We went thorough a phase with our lab and certain "safety" concerns with certain agencies when they brought up "issues" with our chemicals. However, they retreated when we demanded if they ban our chemistry, that they do the same for all the cleaning and maintenance products to be used in our building. We also demanded that people who dye their hair be banned and those who use fingernail polish or hair cream or shampoo with Selenium also share the same fate.

Seems suddenly that it wasn't such an issue and they slowly went back to writing us up for having electrical strips our institution issued to us.

I am not worried...

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 26, 2021

Kino said:
I don't know of any such push or program to do as much, so I don't know why I should worry about it.

We went thorough a phase with our lab and certain "safety" concerns with certain agencies when they brought up "issues" with our chemicals. However, they retreated when we demanded if they ban our chemistry, that they do the same for all the cleaning and maintenance products to be used in our building. We also demanded that people who dye their hair be banned and those who use fingernail polish or hair cream or shampoo with Selenium also share the same fate.

Seems suddenly that it wasn't such an issue and they slowly went back to writing us up for having electrical strips our institution issued to us.

I am not worried...

Could you see them requiring special elimination of the chemicals if not outright banning? What about film? Couldn't people consider them in the same category as plastics?

Helge · Apr 26, 2021

They would have to prove it to close down a whole industry. And there is the "problem"/solution: Film is not especially wasteful or polluting.
In fact, I'd want to put money one that end to end a film shoot (still or movie) is more environmentally friendly than a digital shoot.

Total used non renewable energy is surprisingly high for such a large file to record, edit and store.
And that is not factoring in the much higher hardware turnover in digital land.
Fifties Mitchel cameras from the forties and fifties are still in use FFS!

Nicholas Lindan · Apr 26, 2021

Film processing chemicals are very benign - tree bark extract, sea weed extract/well baked baking soda, some sulfur salts of little consequence. Film base - vinegar and sawdust. Emulsion, OK there is the silver - but silver is a natural disinfectant, right? The baryta in paper is just clay. Why the whole thing is positively organic!

OTOH, the semiconductor industry is hard to beat for using poisonous chemicals. If there is a photographic technology to be banned it is digital. And any camera containing a superfluity of electronics.

Agulliver · Apr 26, 2021

Film processing chemicals are indeed quite benign....especially compared to the millions of units of cleaning products sold in supermarkets. But because almost everyone buys and uses those, and doesn't think of them as "chemicals", nobody worries. There are far more important things you could do if environmental concerns are your chief interest. Plant more trees, eat less meat, fit catalytic converters to cows, stop making semiconductors and microchips....

But we see the word "chemical" and get scared/worried. Just remember we're 70% di-hydrogen monoxide. The whole world is chemicals. Film photography isn't doing the world much damage.

Lachlan Young · Apr 26, 2021

Agulliver said:
stop making semiconductors and microchips

It's the dopants in these that are far more of a worry - especially as the analogue photographic industry worked pretty assiduously to eliminate or drastically reduce quantities of potentially hazardous heavy metals used in silver halide products several decades ago.

Wayne · Apr 26, 2021

Nicholas Lindan said:
Film processing chemicals are very benign - tree bark extract, sea weed extract/well baked baking soda, some sulfur salts of little consequence. Film base - vinegar and sawdust. Emulsion, OK there is the silver - but silver is a natural disinfectant, right? The baryta in paper is just clay. Why the whole thing is positively organic!

OTOH, the semiconductor industry is hard to beat for using poisonous chemicals. If there is a photographic technology to be banned it is digital. And any camera containing a superfluity of electronics.

Nicholas beat me to it by 13 minutes.

removedacct1 · Apr 26, 2021

Let’s worry about things like single-use bottled water plastics first.

Kino · Apr 26, 2021

Alan Edward Klein said:
Could you see them requiring special elimination of the chemicals if not outright banning? What about film? Couldn't people consider them in the same category as plastics?

No and No.
I just don't see it happening. Could it be discussed? Sure, but once it is "discovered", as others have pointed out, that our "chemicals" are their beauty products, cleaning products and thousands of other things daily used by "enlightened" consumers, it usually fades away...

Agulliver · Apr 26, 2021

I have come across people who question if my processing B&W film at home is harmful with "all those nasty chemicals". And I point out that one can actually process film in coffee, if the mood takes. And that chemicals for home use are designed to be safely flushed down the drain, indeed 40 years ago there would likely have been several people just on my street doing the same.

It is my understanding that the film and photo chemical industries literally cleaned up their acts a long time ago. In addition, quantities used these days probably don't register as a significant cause of pollution. There are far more important every day devices and objects that we *all* use which are more damaging than photographic film and the chemicals to process it. Including digital cameras!

Nicholas Lindan · Apr 26, 2021

Agulliver said:
... we're 70% di-hydrogen monoxide...

I prefer "Hydrogen Hydroxide" HOH, sounds nastier.

NortheastPhotographic · Apr 26, 2021

Much of the fear of photochemical processes is ignorance. A good lab recaptures it's waste silver, as I do. Personally I don't like the packaging waste, and the fact that Kodak et all do not have a program that I am aware of to recapture and reuse these materials. I have piles of 35mm canisters, the plastic containers, 120 reels, backing paper....it adds up. That's the only aspect of the form that really bothers me. I try to justify it however by realizing that after 2 weeks or so in my changing room I come away with 1 large trash bag of 120 detritus. That's not so bad, but as I get busier of course...well more waste! At some point there will need to be a way to make these things out of at least biodegradable materials. Or Kodak should accept the 120 reels and plastic canisters.

Plastic recycling is largely a scam, and few plastics are actually recycled. :-(

Kino · Apr 26, 2021

NortheastPhotographic said:
Much of the fear of photochemical processes is ignorance. A good lab recaptures it's waste silver, as I do. Personally I don't like the packaging waste, and the fact that Kodak et all do not have a program that I am aware of to recapture and reuse these materials. I have piles of 35mm canisters, the plastic containers, 120 reels, backing paper....it adds up. That's the only aspect of the form that really bothers me. I try to justify it however by realizing that after 2 weeks or so in my changing room I come away with 1 large trash bag of 120 detritus. That's not so bad, but as I get busier of course...well more waste! At some point there will need to be a way to make these things out of at least biodegradable materials. Or Kodak should accept the 120 reels and plastic canisters.

Plastic recycling is largely a scam, and few plastics are actually recycled. :-(

You're missing out on reselling the spools and backing paper! Tape them down, toss them in a box and throw them on Ebay. I bet they would sell in box lots... If nothing else, the spools will certainly sell.

Jim Jones · Apr 26, 2021

Film photography has become safer over the past several decades. Perhaps more significant, the demise of the beautiful Daguerreotype means no more darkroom processing involving mercury fumes. As for more commonly used chemicals, how about gasoline? It is really dangerous stuff when improperly handled. Another is alcohol. Just a few ounces can cause insane reactions in humans. A more common, but also dangerous, element is oxygen. Too much of it is damaging to humans. Too little is even worse. It might seem that Nature is trying to correct the emergence of human intelligence. However, as the great American philosopher Pogo Possum said "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Cholentpot · Apr 26, 2021

It's not about facts. It's about perception.

If one of the fundies gets a bee in their bonnet about film, the woke crowd would go full on pitchforks to kill Kodak...well, kill them deader.

Kino · Apr 26, 2021

Cholentpot said:
It's not about facts. It's about perception.

If one of the fundies gets a bee in their bonnet about film, the woke crowd would go full on pitchforks to kill Kodak...well, kill them deader.

I'll worry about it when it happens.

Facts and Sunlight kills most bone-headed notions.

BrianShaw · Apr 26, 2021

Gee thanks... you just gave some idiot in the KancelKultur an idea that they weren’t intelligent enough to think up on their own.

MattKing · Apr 26, 2021

There is always a chance that a particular component used in manufacture might become problematic, but the film industry has had a history of finding technological solutions for that. Most (all?) of those components are used in a variety of non-photographic industries, so that serves to protect as well.
I certainly could see some sort of enforced recycling though, which would increase prices. Kodak used to recycle all the cassettes and spools and movie film cartridges in their Kodachrome labs.

Kino · Apr 26, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Gee thanks... you just gave some idiot in the KancelKultur an idea that they weren’t intelligent enough to think up on their own.

Lets all worry about a theoretical problem... not.

Helge · Apr 26, 2021

Cholentpot said:
It's not about facts. It's about perception.

If one of the fundies gets a bee in their bonnet about film, the woke crowd would go full on pitchforks to kill Kodak...well, kill them deader.

You can only take lunacy as far. Still.
As long as science and its connected methods has any sway, you won’t get the last say if you are dumber than dirt, but aggressive.

ciniframe · Apr 26, 2021

As far a pollution just buy off the regulatory government agencies. Works all the time, all over the world. All political systems have their price. In the 1970’s for a few months I worked for a firm that made circuit boards for all sorts of applications. Very dirty processes that tainted the sewer waste water with heavy metals and other nasty stuff. The local municipality regularly fined the business and paying that fine was just part of the overhead.
Do I sound sarcastic? Maybe, but not too far from the truth perhaps.

Arthurwg · Apr 26, 2021

Nicholas Lindan said:
Film processing chemicals are very benign - tree bark extract, sea weed extract/well baked baking soda, some sulfur salts of little consequence. Film base - vinegar and sawdust. Emulsion, OK there is the silver - but silver is a natural disinfectant, right? The baryta in paper is just clay. Why the whole thing is positively organic!

OTOH, the semiconductor industry is hard to beat for using poisonous chemicals. If there is a photographic technology to be banned it is digital. And any camera containing a superfluity of electronics.

Yes, I'm glad you said that. Same goes for electric cars. By the time you generate the electricity, build the batteries, add new power lines and other infrastructure I think you'll generate more pollution than you have now. Add to that battery recycling and you really will have a toxic swamp. What's more, the switch to electric vehicles will also drive up the cost of domestic power, so be prepared for a double or triple electricity bill at home.

summicron1 · Apr 26, 2021

Alan Edward Klein said:
What if the government decides that film is too wasteful? All those chemicals and everything polluting the environment. Would you support the cancellation of film like fossil fuels will be stopped in automobiles? What should we do to protect our hobby?

your post is based on the false understanding that government is banning fossil fuels -- it is not. It IS forcing society to cut back on the production of vehicles that use them and if you breathe air you should be glad they are.

Market forces are also playing huge part in this -- solar and wind are now cheaper than fossil fuels but it will take time to get the infrastructure of fossil fuels -- all those production lines and corporate revenue projections that depend on them -- to catch up. Ultimately companies that make the transition fastest will prosper while those that lag will not. It is for the betterment of all concerned for government to push for modernization of the national production infrastructure. Why do you think countries in the middle east that produce oil are desperately trying to diversify their economies? They know the oil will not last.

But as with all things, ultimately the market will decide what product lives or dies -- seen any buggy whip factories lately?

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