Why XTOL 1:1 vs. HC110 or D76 in Jobo?

[analog65]

Hi, I am switching over from tray development with my Tmax 4x5 using HC110 to a Jobo CPP2 and 3010 expert drum. The consensus seems to be XTOL 1:1 when developing in the Jobo. Can the group here help me understand this better? If I am not correct in that assumption, please let me know.

Thank you in advance?

 

[Mark Crabtree]

That seems like a dandy choice, but any of these will work.

Just a couple of the things to look at when picking a developer for the Jobo are quantity of developer relative to amount of film, and the shorter development times from rotary processing. Jobo had a handy chart showing the amount of chemistry for various film length, reel, and tank combos.

Anyway Xtol 1:1 sounds like an excellent choice all around. D76 1:1 would be not wildly different and fine, but no particular advantage. I don't have any real thoughts on HC110 other than somewhat short times at B. More dilute brings up some questions in my mind, but might well be fine. Maybe someone else here has experience with that. Xtol replenished would be nice, but I'd be concerned about the constant churning for a replenished developer.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I've used TMX with HC-110 dilution B as well as with xtol straight. I prefer xtol because I've had blocked highlights with HC-110. XTOL B works gentler than HC-110. Maybe there are other APUGers that can verify that. Also with Xtol, you can shoot at box speed too. I'm not bad mouthing HC-110, but I haven't liked it with TMX.

 

[analog65]

Yes, it is nice to get different perspectives from the group here. I am moving from HC110 and tray development to the jobo. I've used the tray method for years with HC110 and gotten very good and consistent results, But, I am working on larger projects now, and the convenience of the jobo and expert drums is hard to beat. I will be testing my Tmax in the Jobo taking density readings with my densitometer, but since I don't have a strong feeling about one developer over the other, I thought it would be a good idea to sort this out before starting the testing process. As we know, there are pros and cons to every choice....

 

[Mark Crabtree]

I missed that you were doing sheet film. TMY or TMX?

 

[BradS]

I love HC-110 and have used it for years - but when I started processing 4x5 in a Jobo drum with continuous rotary agitation, it gave me trouble. HC-110 seems to be very sensitive to agitation. When agitated continuously, it simply builds too much contrast too fast. I prefer D-76, D-23 or Suzuki's DS-8 when processing in the Jobo drum.

 

[mrred]

I always found XTol 1:2 or Replenished to be my best choice for drum processing. I was using HC110, but stopped when I started with the drums as I found it got a little soft.

 

[analog65]

T-Max 100

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

With dilute Xtol in a Jobo, you just have to be careful to not go under the 100ml stock per 35mm roll (or equivalent). Sometimes that can be difficult to do in a Jobo depending on the exact tank/film/reel combination. The problem is that you can go over the max liquid volume possible for the given tank. Of course, you also have to observe the Jobo minimum for that tank/reel, but that's not normally a problem. For example, to process two rolls of 35mm in Xtol 1:1 in the two roll 2500 series tank would require 400ml, which is too much for that tank, or at least bordering on too much. With the larger tanks you can also reach a limitation on what the motor will handle.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

With dilute Xtol in a Jobo, you just have to be careful to not go under the 100ml stock per 35mm roll (or equivalent). Sometimes that can be difficult to do in a Jobo depending on the exact tank/film/reel combination. The problem is that you can go over the max liquid volume possible for the given tank. Of course, you also have to observe the Jobo minimum for that tank/reel, but that's not normally a problem. For example, to process two rolls of 35mm in Xtol 1:1 in the two roll 2500 series tank would require 400ml, which is too much for that tank, or at least bordering on too much. With the larger tanks you can also reach a limitation on what the motor will handle.

That was the issue I was getting at when I mentioned keeping an eye on the quantity of developer to amount of film. Rolfe explained it well, and of course the situation is different for different developers. I haven't used an Expert Drum and can't remember the developer quantities, but suspect the developer quantity will be more consistent with that tank. It is usually not really that big a deal anyway, but is exacerbated with roll film.

On dilute Xtol, 100ml stock per 8x10 equivalent is the Kodak minimum recommendation. I now mostly use Xtol at 1:3 and use 70ml per 8x10 equiv with great reliability. Others tested this way back and found the same thing. I believe Phil Davis did. There is still lots of development potential even for plus development, though I would probably use more solution for plus and above even if just for more convenient times. 70ml happens also to be the amount of stock you would add when replenishing.

If you are happy with HC110, and highlight contrast is the only problem problem people are having with it in rotary, then you may want to stick with that since it is what you are used to. TMX always gave a pretty gentle highlight curve for me. TMY seems to have a hair trigger in that regard. You will be able to get extremely consistent results with the Jobo and should be able to easily dial the overall contrast back to exactly where you want it. I assume you mostly used B dilution. You'd want to see if that gives you comfortable times. It would be nice to hear if anyone is using dilutions beyond that in the Jobo.

Straight Xtol or D76 would be fine too if you don't mind the expense. Xtol really doesn't add as much to the equation for a large format shooters as for smaller sizes.

 

[analog65]

Thanks Rolfe and Mark, all good points. As I continue down this path of selecting the developer in my Jobo I and pulling together a criteria list. I am making the base assumption since I will be testing my films with a densitometer, that any of the three XTOL, D76, HC110 will be just fine and the jobo will give me very reliable and consistent results.

With HC110 B when using tray development a couple of the times are too short so I have to dilute in order to get above the 4 minute mark. I just did a price check on XTOL vs D76 and at B&H it is about twice as much. And, the thing I don't like about XTOL is mixing up 5L (1.3 gallon) versus 1 gallon for D76. However if one dilutes XTOL at 1:1 and uses D76 stock, then price is more or less even. But I still don't like the 5L mixing requirement.

Rolfe/Mark based on your observations about having enough active developer I went and read the Jobo bulletin and volume requirements for the expert drums and 2500 series. At first glance it looks like D76 stock is an easy selection because you don't have to worry about ratio and dilutions, but until testing I won't know if I run into an issue on short development times on my contracted (N-1, N-2) times yet. According to the Kodak data sheet for T-Max 100 and Tri-X, they do not show D76 1:1 as an option for rotary processing, but do for Tri-X. I assume that D76 1:1 either was not tested, or is not desirable, although they list XTOL and XTOL 1:1.

Although, I hear from others, and to include Mark, that 1:3 with XTOL and D76 work just fine in the Jobo. So many variations!!

I am trying to get myself all the data and avoiding as many pitfalls as possible before starting the film testing process. Not my favorite task, but it has to be done.

Thanks again and I appreciate the input, comments, and help.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

I apologize for sloppy writing, but my comment about Xtol 1:3 was just that 70ml seems to be a safe minimum per 8x10 equivalent. I run that in stainless tanks by hand, so have no opinion about it in a Jobo.

I wouldn't read much into Kodak not listing a specific combination (except in extremes). TMX times aren't usually all thtat much different than Tri-X so that would give you an idea of whether the combination gives a practical time. I think of D76 and Xtol as fairly similar to work with compared across comparable dilutions at least for stock solutions and 1:1. Xtol may well do better at the higher dilutions, but I don't know.

I agree with you about the 5L size of Xtol. I find it hard to believe Kodak never dealt with that. I don't know if people in other parts of the world have 5L containers, but I have none. Not a problem for storage since putting into smaller containers has some advantages anyway. But for mixing I end up using two 1gallon pitchers, plus a 1 or 2 liter for measuring the last liter.

HC110 may still have some advantages and should be a good match with TMX, more so than with TMY or Tri-X sheet film. Why not just get into the darkroom and do a test with HC110 at the dilution that gives you a time you like, knocking off some percentage for rotary. Do a plus development test with plenty of density. If that works (gives adequate density) and seems likely to give a time you like, you know you have a working combo. Lots of info for an hour of your time and a sheet of film. You don't need high precision to see if it is going to work; you can fine tune later to your heart's content.

 

[analog65]

Mark, I agree, and that is what I would be doing today, but we have rain here today and very overcast. I cant do my Stouffer step tablet exposure under these conditions, but the rain is going to clear later today and will be able to tomorrow for sure. I will follow back up here after I establish my EI and N development time and after I know that I will have a good guess at my contracted and expanded development times and if any issues like dilution will likely pop up before testing for them. I still haven't made up my mind which developer I am going to use, but you have me leaning back towards HC110 again!

 

[karl]

I bought a plastic 5L graduated cylinder specifically for mixing Xtol. It works quite well. Then I pour the stock solution into 10 500ml amber glass bottles. I almost always use it 1:1 with a total volume of 1 liter in mind.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

I don't know that HC110 will be any better, but it is what you are used to, you probably have it on hand, and presumably it gives you results you like. If it doesn't do what you want, then you'll have a good basis for trying something else.

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

In terms of not having to worry about excess developer volume in the Jobo, I would say that HC-110 dil. B is probably the least hassle as you normally wouldn't have to worry about it. I think the recommendation is 6ml of syrup per 8x10 equivalent and the B dilution is 1:31.

In terms of Xtol, Kodak withdrew the 1:2 and 1:3 times from their literature after people were having unexplained failures after Xtol's introduction. My own feeling is that 99% of these "failures" were from using too little stock solution (the aforementioned 100ml per 8x10 area). Lots of people use the higher dilutions successfully but for the reasons we've been discussing, they are almost certainly in larger non-rotary tanks.

An historical note: Xtol came out after rotary processing was commonplace. As a result, it is the only developer for which Kodak publishes separate rotary times. But these published times assume NO prewet. Jobo used to recommend a 5 minute prewet because you could then use the times published for inversion processing with intermittent agitation. It saved the company from having to test hundreds of different film/developer combinations. Some have interpreted this to mean that Kodak recommends no prewet with Xtol. That is not true -- it is simply that they did their testing without one and those are the times that are published. So you can take your pick -- use the Kodak times and no prewet or use times commonly published for inversion processing WITH a prewet and the results should be the same.

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

For mixing the 5 liter Xtol, I just use a generic white plastic bucket I got at the hardware store that has liter markings on it. I split it up into five of these bottles. It really isn't much hassle and 5 liters lasts a long time -- long enough that I'm usually throwing out some. I always mark the bottles with the date it was mixed and toss after six months or so.

http://www.specialtybottle.com/amberbostonroundglassbottle32ozwstdcap.aspx

 

[CatLABS]

With dilute Xtol in a Jobo, you just have to be careful to not go under the 100ml stock per 35mm roll (or equivalent). Sometimes that can be difficult to do in a Jobo depending on the exact tank/film/reel combination. The problem is that you can go over the max liquid volume possible for the given tank. Of course, you also have to observe the Jobo minimum for that tank/reel, but that's not normally a problem. For example, to process two rolls of 35mm in Xtol 1:1 in the two roll 2500 series tank would require 400ml, which is too much for that tank, or at least bordering on too much. With the larger tanks you can also reach a limitation on what the motor will handle.

Rolfe, I think you are confusing the MINIMUM needed quantities with something else.
I am guessing you are referring to the Multitank 2, which requires a minimum of 270ml of liquid. There is no reason or issue with running more then that. In fact you can run (in rotation on a lift, and about double that if you are using inversion or a machine with a magnet and no lift) more then 600ml in that tank. The only maximum to be considered is the max load on the processors motor. Each model has a different max level (and in most cases even those lower ones can be safely exceeded when needed), but that usually is reached at larger tank capacities, like a 6 reel tank.

As for Expert drums, you can have upwards of 2 liters in the tank in rotation, on a lift. The minimum stated quantity is 210ml, which while is enough to wet all the films, is not enough even when using stock D76 if you have 10 sheets loaded.

Those minimum amounts listed on the tanks usually refer color processing, and denote the minimum amount of liquid needed to wet and submerge all material loaded in the tank.

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

Rolfe, I think you are confusing the MINIMUM needed quantities with something else.
I am guessing you are referring to the Multitank 2, which requires a minimum of 270ml of liquid. There is no reason or issue with running more then that. In fact you can run (in rotation on a lift, and about double that if you are using inversion or a machine with a magnet and no lift) more then 600ml in that tank. The only maximum to be considered is the max load on the processors motor. Each model has a different max level (and in most cases even those lower ones can be safely exceeded when needed), but that usually is reached at larger tank capacities, like a 6 reel tank.

As for Expert drums, you can have upwards of 2 liters in the tank in rotation, on a lift. The minimum stated quantity is 210ml, which while is enough to wet all the films, is not enough even when using stock D76 if you have 10 sheets loaded.

Those minimum amounts listed on the tanks usually refer color processing, and denote the minimum amount of liquid needed to wet and submerge all material loaded in the tank.

No, I'm completely clear on the difference. I was just trying to explain it, perhaps badly.

Of course there is a maximum limit, because at some point the excess will simply overflow the tank and you will be left with too little stock solution for the area of film. I should say that although I have a CPA-2 and an expert drum, I use my ATL-1000 99% of the time and therefore my comments are informed primarily by the 2500 series tanks on that processor. I agree that the expert drums have the ability to use a wide range of liquid volume -- you just have to use common sense when deciding what dilution to use.

 

[CatLABS]

For example, to process two rolls of 35mm in Xtol 1:1 in the two roll 2500 series tank would require 400ml, which is too much for that tank, or at least bordering on too much.

As i pointed out, this is simply not true. Even the smallest 2500 tank (multitank 2), will take more then 600ml, before it might overflow.

 

[Rolfe Tessem]

As i pointed out, this is simply not true. Even the smallest 2500 tank (multitank 2), will take more then 600ml, before it might overflow.

I just tested mine with two 35mm reels and got 500ml with no film loaded. Obviously, film will displace some volume so it would be somewhat less.

Are you sure we're talking about the same tank? The small one that comes with the ATL-1000?

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Either way, Rolfe's point to make sure you keep above the minimum recommended amount of stock solution is good advice.