Why shoot film

Woman wearing shades.

Woman wearing shades.

  • 0
  • 0
  • 12
Curved Wall

A
Curved Wall

  • 4
  • 0
  • 63
Crossing beams

A
Crossing beams

  • 9
  • 1
  • 88
Shadow 2

A
Shadow 2

  • 4
  • 0
  • 63
Shadow 1

A
Shadow 1

  • 3
  • 0
  • 60

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
198,837
Messages
2,781,638
Members
99,723
Latest member
bookchair
Recent bookmarks
0

Bolex

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
Messages
7
Location
Uk
Format
35mm
Hi im new to this forum and did an a level in 2007 at college where we used darkroom equipment and film but even then seemed to be in the minority as most pros were by then digital but the technician told me my canon 30d year 2006 with 8 million pixels camera was still not as good quality as 35mm film iv only just got back into photography and am amazed how far cameras have come with the lastest 80d having some three times the number of pixels so really I'm wondering nearly 10 years later.

is digital now as good as film quality ???and secondly why does film endure and where would you recommend the cheapest and best place to buy and process it today thanks
 

pdeeh

Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2012
Messages
4,765
Location
UK
Format
Multi Format
This question gets asked over and over
Have a search in the forum for similar - you won't get any new answers in this thread.
i'd guess you'll get a variety of responses:
"Digital is crap and anyone shooting it is a fool and worthy only of contempt"
"Film is superior in every way to anything ever"
"Just use what you want"
"Stop worrying and just make pictures"
"There's room for digital and film in the world and neither is 'superior'"


It's like asking what's the best cheese, really.


good luck.
 
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
2,408
Location
London, UK
Format
35mm

Peter Schrager

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
4,159
Location
fairfield co
Format
Large Format
SWISS. OR MONTEREY JACK ??
Dangerous questions.. my take is getting your hands dirty
Still haven't seen digital art that compares to a good analog print but do appreciate the well Done manipulation
 

Agulliver

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
3,566
Location
Luton, United Kingdom
Format
Multi Format
OK, I'll bite.

Film looks different to digital. It reacts to light in a different way...and that has never changed, probably never will. Film is a random structure of chemical grains, rather than a matrix of electronic pixels arranged regularly on a sensor. Film almost always can capture a greater range of contrast compared to digital.

Also, film costs money in terms of ongoing costs of film and processing. Maybe not much money if you're frugal, but it always costs. Film usually comes in 24 or 36 exposure cassettes, possibly a little more...possibly a lot less depending on your format. That's all taken in account when shooting film. Film and prints take up physical space after processing and printing.

It tends to lead to different techniques of photography, depending on which system you are using. In addition, I genuinely feel that no digital system can replicate B&W film. Some would argue digital can replace colour film but I still find the two react differently to light. There are scenes where I think...."Nope, only film can capture that the way I see it" but never the opposite.

Buying film...if you want to use B&W the cheapest way is to get a bulk loader and some empty cassettes from that well known auction site and buy yourself 50 or 100 foot rolls of your favourite film from one of a number of online vendors. You certainly still can buy film from camera shops and even larger branches of Boots, as I see you are in the UK...though that will cost more it is good to support your local real life film vendor if you still have one. You might even find a great deal, for example my local camera shop has outdated but usable 200 foot rolls of Ilford HP5+ intended for motion picture cameras for ridiculously low prices. They are selling to students who spool them into cassettes for ordinary 35mm camears.

As for colour, the cheapest is actually Poundland who sell the Agfa Vista Plus 200 films for £1 a go. It's repackaged Fuji CN200 and while not the very best, it is perfectly adequate. Otherwise, Boots again sell colour film and the online retailers will be cheaper still. There's a good range of print film still available from Kodak and Fuji, and to be honest none of it is bad. Slide film is now something of a niche, and really you will have to go online unless you happen to live in an area where there are lots of slide shooters in which case your Boots or local camera shop might stock it.

For processing colour, there are still high street "mini labs" at the aforementioned Boots and also national chain Snappy Snaps. Some bigger branches of the supermarket chain Asda still sell and process colour film. There are also some eBay deals occasionally to be had by labs offering limited time sales with silly prices like £1 to process (but not to print) a film. In the case of process only you'd have to scan your negatives. For B&W, there are labs (mostly aimed at pros) which process B&W film but it's far cheaper to do it yourself. All you need is a changing bag (easily had for a few £), a processing tank (easily had second hand), some chemicals...try the same sources as your film, you can end up paying just £7 for enough developer to do 15 rolls of film. You'll also need fixer (dead cheap), preferably wetting agent and some bottles to keep the developer and fixer in as they come either as concentrates or powders that you dissolve. If you're lucky, you might find a local college or university which offers photography courses will also rent out their dark rooms. Also the presence of a good photographic course in an area usually means there's enough business to support a proper traditional camera shop nearby which will have all you need over the counter, and staff who know about the stuff. However a real "bricks and mortar" shop will likely cost more than online. Again it is good to support a real life shop.

If it is permitted, I can certainly say that I personally recommend www.silverprint.co.uk as a great online vendor of all things film. I've also used firstcall photographic who are also good but charge more for postage. Whereabouts in the UK are you? I bet other members can recommend local shops. If you're anywhere near Luton, we still have a decent camera shop in the town centre and up the road/train line in Harpenden there is Key Photo, another proper retailer.

Bottom line...if you are a little patient and a bit lucky with online auctions you could probably amass everything you need (bulk loader, cassettes, changing bag, processing tank) for £50 or less. Your ongoing costs are going to be film and chemicals. Bear in mind that all the products mentioned are available brand new but at greater cost than second hand. It's great to support the manufacturers and vendors still in the game, but I doubt anybody was ever shot down for buying a used bulk loader or developing tank.

If you have a camera and want to check it works, my advice would be to buy a roll or two of Agfa Vista from Poundland, shoot a test roll or two and hand them in anywhere that still does C41 on the high street. Asda might charge £5 a roll to process and print, Boot £7 by my recent experiences. Chances are your total outlay will be in the order of £15 and you'll know that your camera works (or not). Then look at what other equipment you want, whether you want to shoot colour, B&W or both.
 

Peter Schrager

Subscriber
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
4,159
Location
fairfield co
Format
Large Format
Agulliver...nice post aND the fact you took that much time to help someone new...BRAVO TO YOU!
BEST PETER
 

Halford

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
120
Location
Wageningen, NL
Format
4x5 Format
Hi and welcome to APUG!

To answer your question, there are all kinds of reasons why people choose to shoot on film and print in darkrooms. "Megapixels" is really not one of them. It's in al likelihood true that you get more resolution from a modern digital sensor than from a frame of 35mm film (though you'd still pay a lot to be able to exceed the information content of a sheet of large format film). And that matters ... if you're printing murals. The difference in resolution is indistinguishable to the eye for the most common print sizes. (Also, there are huge false equivalencies made because of the spatial arrangement of silver grains or dye clouds in an emulsion, and the way the eye sees their 'resolution' is very, very different from that in a grid of pixels, but that's another whole can of worms to discuss and only slightly relevant to your question. Just to say that as a result of the nature of the materials, film and digital sensors can sometimes bring a different 'look' to an image)

So let's get away from the question of which medium is better or worse -- particularly using resolution as measured in a unit that only applies to one of the media anyway. It's not a very helpful metric for any practical purpose.

So why shoot a medium that is expensive and time-consuming? Here are a few reasons that I have no doubt others will add to or disagree with:

1. It's expensive and time-consuming. By which I mean, once you've paid for your camera and your computer and your printer, shooting a digital image costs almost nothing (actually it costs a little bit of wear and tear on your shutter, bit it feels free until you suddenly have the repair bill :smile:). Shooting film means constantly buying film and paper to print it on (of course lots of people scan film too). It means having 36 frames on a 135 roll, or a dozen frames on a 120 roll. Or two frames in a 4x5 film holder. You stop 'spray and pray' photography. You bring a new awareness and mindfulness to each shot. You actually look at each scene and image you make, because you are investing in each and every photograph. Of course you still screw up. Often. And a 35mm frame is still very cheap. But many, many of us find that the constraints of the medium make us better photographers.

2. It's really cheap. What? I thought you just said it was expensive and time-consuming? See the first sentence above: "once you've paid for your camera and your computer and your printer". These are expensive items. And they go obsolete in about 15 minutes. I do have a couple of digital cameras that I enjoy using, and a decent computer that I bought because I need it for other purposes. But those were expensive items. And I still don't have a photo printer, because the ones I consider worth buying I can't afford. On the other hand I have a couple of really, really top-notch film cameras -- arguably some of the best cameras ever made -- that I bought for a fraction of the cost of my decent-but-far-from-the-best digital cameras. From a use point of view, a 10, 20, 30 or 40 year old film camera is much more valuable than a comparably aged digital. Digital means buying equipment ... again, and again, and again. And my first DSLR I couldn't wait to get rid of because it wouldn't do basic things that I used to be able to do on my old Olympus OM-1 (like mirror lock-up). Oh yes -- and every time you get a newer, higher-resolution sensor, you'll find that your fast computer and big hard drive are suddenly slow and small again. By contrast, my enlarger projects fine-grained Portra just as well as relatively-course-grained HP5.

3. All modern films are amazing. Kodak, Ilford and Fuji, along with some of the smaller manufacturers like Foma and Maco/Rollei have invested incredible time, energy and money into producing materials that render tone and colour in truly beautiful ways. It's not, of course, that you can't do these things in Photoshop (another annual expense btw) but that most people just don't have the time and energy to spend figuring out how to render a tone curve just so. Instead most users just push the saturation and sharpening sliders until they destroy the integrity of their image. The speed advantage of digital is at least to a large extent offset by the time it takes to really master Photoshop to achieve what, to a large extent, is already built into modern films and papers. (I'm just learning colour printing at the moment, and I used to worry at the lack of control offered by colour papers. And instead I'm just blown away at the job they do 'out the box').

4. The images will still be there in 30 years. I want to look up a document I wrote once at university. Here, have a look for a XYwrite file on this 5.25" floppy disk... Computers fail. Formats change. Those backups you carefully took get misplaced -- or the restore software doesn't exist any more -- or the disk format changes, or the CDs you wrote on have delaminated with age, or your new computer no longer has a SCSI / Firewire / USB-A connector. For all the promise of perfect, reliable copies, digital technology has been a terrible, terrible disappointment when it comes to durability. By contrast, pick up a book that was published 150 years ago. It might smell a bit musty, have a bit of mould growing on it; the pages might be yellowed but it is still as clearly readable as the day it was printed. Likewise, negatives are really durable and if processed and stored with even marginal care, remain printable for a very, very long time. Now imagine if Van Gogh or Monet had worked in digital media. We would almost certainly never have been enriched by their paintings. Okay, maybe I am not the next Van Gogh, but perhaps that judgement should really be left for others, no?

5. It's a refuge. We experience a daily barrage of networked information. I used to spend 8 hours a day at work and a couple more at home sitting at a computer making software, and more recently analyzing data and reading & writing papers. Is this how I want to spend my hobby time? For me, no. Again for me, the process of slowing down, looking with care at the world we are in, and carefully trying to capture some aspect of it in a physical artifact that I can touch, feel, smell, is a break from that constant assault of the 24 hour news cycle, the pressures and distortions of social media, the constant sense of urgency that the world throws at us. It is a peaceful and mindful experience producing beautiful (hopefully) objects.

5. It makes us happy. This is arguably the most important. Nobody can tell you what medium is right for you. Don't believe anyone who tells you that you ought to be shooting this or that way. For every reason I have given above about why to shoot film, there are other reasons to shoot digital. It is your time, money and energy you are investing, and you should invest it in the medium that makes you happier. For me nothing touches the exciting sense of possibility when I load film into a camera; the sense of paying attention when composing an image I'm investing in; the sense of almost-miraculous wonder as funny-smelling chemicals and arcane rituals of temperature and time-keeping turn the latent image into a negative, and the sheer satisfaction of watching an image develop on a piece of paper in a tray of developer. If you are more satisfied by fulfilling your vision through the technological marvel that is silicon sensors, modern software, and the undisputed excellence of modern inkjet printers, then that is what you should do.


Oh - you also asked about places to buy and process film. I see you're in the UK where you're blessed with a lot of options. I've had really good experienced dealing with the people at AG Photographic, and I order a lot of my materials from them even though I'm across the water in The Netherlands. But there are lots of other options.

Have a happy Sunday!
 

NJH

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
702
Location
Dorset
Format
Multi Format
I second that recommendation. I've used them on just a couple of occasions but both times the results were good.
I use them all time, in particular as I love fuji slide film so I use Snaps Photoservices for all my E6, dropped in 6 rolls yesterday. Its expensive but provia100f is just god like to me, it does that amazing thing of always looking extremely close to how I remember seeing colour, its tonality and intensity, just ever so slightly more contrasty and a tiny bit more blue. I know its the sort of thing people don't like talking about on here but scanned provia100f once on the computer looks about 1000x nicer to me than what I got from Fuji, Leica or Canon digital cameras. Fuji's own provia and velvia emulations in their cameras are hilariously bad digital interpretations of what their own wonderful films produce. I also lost a ton of money on that horrid Leica M8, thing developed 4 dead pixels in a year and ended up loosing me 5 hundred notes when I sold it whereas secondhand film gear tends to hold its value really well and will last for decades, proof was selling on my M7 after a year only lost me 200 notes.

Reasons for using B&W film, well I love the grain, the grit, it can give either extra depth and focus to an image or cast a veil of abstraction from the underlying image, it can do pretty much whatever you want to it to do.

Hyper-reality lovers though will have to live in that other place where the mega pixels and HDR roam.
 

Frank53

Member
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
660
Location
Reuver, Netherlands
Format
Multi Format
Hi im new to this forum and did an a level in 2007 at college where we used darkroom equipment and film but even then seemed to be in the minority as most pros were by then digital but the technician told me my canon 30d year 2006 with 8 million pixels camera was still not as good quality as 35mm film iv only just got back into photography and am amazed how far cameras have come with the lastest 80d having some three times the number of pixels so really I'm wondering nearly 10 years later.

is digital now as good as film quality ???and secondly why does film endure and where would you recommend the cheapest and best place to buy and process it today thanks

Hi,
After all those long answers I don't have much to add, other than that it is not a matter of being better. I'm sure you can do the same thing digital with a lot less effort, but I think film is a lot more fun and more satisfying.
To use a cliché, life is about the journey, not about the destination.
But if you do not have that feeling, stay away from it.
Kind regards,
Frank
 

BMbikerider

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
2,950
Location
UK
Format
35mm
My now Ex-wife didn't often say things of worth, but she was a photographer of no mean ability and came up with a phrase which I think is very true.

'Digital photography has no soul'. By this I interpret what she meant as meaning, pick up a digital camera and snap away and you are almost assured of success. Film photographer even with an up to date film/camera combination, If he/she processes their own takes a degree of knowledge and skill in the darkroom to get it right.

Myself, I like to think of a different and possibly more complex comparison:- Buy a box with flatpack pre-cut furniture and you will be able to assemble it into an object with a use (but possibly little aesthetic worth). Make 50 and they will all be more or less the same. Consider this as a digital image.

Now take a craftsman who, given the right tools and a few pieces of selected timber, appropriate tools and a few nails, screws and glue, makes a similar object using his hands and skill. Provide enough materials to make 50 to the same design, and each individual will be subtly different, but just as satisfying and aesthetically good to look at. Yes skill takes time to aquire and that is what makes it all worth while - IMPROVEMENT.

None of this 'I want it and I want it now'. If something takes time to make or aquire it will have more personal value. Consider this as the photograph made with film and it will bring with it, a lot of satisfaction to own and use.
 
Last edited:

bain

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Messages
11
Location
NYC
Format
Multi Format
What Halford said!

When I went to college to study commercial photography I picked up the digital camera far more than my film. So when I got a break from class work and went on a vacation or night out and brought my digital camera, shooting with it felt too much like work. I got wrapped up in perfecting a shot with digital review and multiple screens and feeling like the color balance is never perfect, and it ruined the moment for me. Digital photography is just too distracting in that setting. So if I wanted to enjoy the moment I started bringing along a little Canon rebel G with a 40mm 2.8 pancake. It maxes out at 1/2000, it's light and slim, and if I lose or break it I can replace my kit for a little under $150. If I see a shot I like, I wait for the right moment, take one or two frames, and get on with my life with out pouring over a digital screen. Shooting film lets me (and the people I shoot) live in the moment, and that's very important to me.

Also...

I was born in 93, so I grew up in the middle of the digital camera revolution. I remember the year I went to summer camp as a kid for the first time, not with a disposable film camera, but a Kodak digital point and shoot. I've been inundated with the speed and availability of digital imagery and digital technology most of my life. But I took photo classes in high school and learned how to develop and print BKW in a darkroom. In that, I found a whole "new" slower thoughtful process of photography and improved my work. I believe that learning new processes and slowing down makes you a better/more humble photographer.
 

LAG

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
1,006
Location
The moon
Format
Multi Format
In my opinion the thread title and the OP are two different things: the decision of using film (title) should have nothing to do with image quality (OP) on either side. Anyway, both matters are very bad "focused"

...is digital now as good as film quality ???

To cut a long story short: No (and by the way, do no tie quality together with number of pixels either)

and secondly why does film endure

Multiple reasons that perhaps start by one simple question: Why should not it be so?

and where would you recommend the cheapest and best place to buy and process it today thanks

The best place is clearly "in your hands", as for the cheapest, it depends on your photographic outcomes volume
 

R.Gould

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
1,752
Location
Jersey Chann
Format
Multi Format
Why Film?,I love the difference, make twenty prints of the same image in the darkroom and you will get twenty slightly different prints, maybe only very slight, but subtle differences will be there, make twenty prints from a digital file, every print will be exactly the same, as one world famous printer once said, darkroom printing is craftmanship, digital printing is like screen printing, you just let the printer churn out the prints while yoy get on with something else, Nothing wrong with digital, i have seen some nice digi prints, also, I run a few analogue weekend courses, I get many youngsters, at least they are to me, say 18 to 25, and they come to me looking for something different, what they often say is, I love photography, grew up with digital and computers, work in an office with computers all day, don't want to go home and sit in front of a computer all night, and what they see on film is just different, and using film makes you think about the exposure, after all, with digital you can fire off as much as you like, bound to get 1 good shot of 10 or 20 of the picture in front of the lens, with MF you have at the most 16 frames, sometime 12 or 8, with 35mm you have 36, maybe 38, so you think about every shot, try to make every shot count, and one last thing, the number of times I have seen a digi user miss some great shots while looking at the screen to check their last, sometimes average shot, while a film user takes the shot, winds the film on and is instantly ready for the next,
 

removed-user-1

Film is a different medium than electronic imaging. It's like asking if handmade ceramic coffee mugs are somehow less effective drinking vessels than mass-produced plastic cups. Both will do the job, but one is a lot more satisfying.
 

guangong

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
3,589
Format
Medium Format
Halford gave an excellent overview. I would only like to supplement his remarks by noting that even if you decide upon digital capture over film, you should use a film camera to record benchmark family events for the simple reason that digital is ephemeral whereas film is long lasting.
 

Bob Carnie

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Messages
7,735
Location
toronto
Format
Med. Format RF
To OP

Personally For me film trumps digital capture - I like to have film in my hand, easy to store and come back to over time- Film I can solarize which is my favourite way of making images- I have all the equipment to handle film therfore its cheap for me-I love grain that film gives me- the workflow in a darkroom is probably the most enjoyable time for most workers.

But - Digital trumps film- Working professional photographers are under tremendous stress and digital capture is an immediate response to their clients needs- digital capture can be used directly to film output without a scan intermediate stage- white balance and auto focus cameras make life much easier for commercial photographers technical workflow- stitching offers the photographer the ability to make serious size prints.

Learn both and decide which workflow is for you-- I own only film cameras but I have serious post processing equipment and I mix them together.
 

ciniframe

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
803
Format
Sub 35mm
I like the smell of fixer.

One more. The cameras I like....well, that is all they take.
 

Harry Stevens

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
424
Location
East Midland
Format
Multi Format
Most things in the digital world remove the user from most decisions............Plus often forgotten is with film a negative in a sleeve is a end result. I can still recall a Lady crying to a tech expert on a radio show because she had lost all the pictures she had ever taken of her two year old child that she had saved on a USB stick that had become corrupted and non working......

Digital is very important in the world of photography and nobody stops you from doing both, hell people even drive vintage steam cars and own a modern day Toyota......:smile:
 
Last edited:

blockend

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,049
Location
northern eng
Format
35mm
The answer is, they're just different. You don't have to choose. Use both and see which you like. It's a none question, like do you prefer lithography or screenprint, orange or green, sky or grass.
 

Paul Howell

Subscriber
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
9,685
Location
Scottsdale Az
Format
Multi Format
For a working pro, digital is fast, quality is good, cost is low. I was a combat photographer then worked for wires as a photo journalist, all in the days of film, I could not image shooting film as a JP today. On the other hand for personal and other commercial work film still has role for those who prefer film. I shoot 90% film as I have owned my enlarger set up, LF and MF equipment for years, my Pentax Spotmatic and M42 lens for over 50 years, my 35mm AF system is new to me only last year, paid less less then $400 for it. To buy a high end scanner, large format inkjet, and current full frame or MF digital camera would cost me over $10,000. Also I enjoy working in the darkroom, spending hours looking at a monitor fiddling with PS has little appeal to me.
 

fstop

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
1,119
Format
35mm
Film is increasingly moving toward the hobbyist direction. Film is fun, fascinating and very satisfying.I use film in my hobby pursuits.
Quality argument is moot if you shoot film to be scanned for the internet or printed on magazine stock.
A 36.3MP FX-Format CMOS Sensor will give you outstanding quality on the net or printed.
My professional work is published directly to the internet and used in four color process for brochures.You just can't match time and ease of transfer with film.

No single medium can satisfy everyone, film is a medium as is digital,water color,pencil,oil paint. You choose the medium you want for your art.You as the artist put the soul into the image.To claim digital is soulless only means your work has no soul.
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
hey bolex

there is nothing wrong with either or.
i like film ( or paper, or glass, or plastic or metal ) better mainly because
it is something tangible i can retain when
the solar flare destroys all the electronics
and i like getting my hands dirty as peter said.
i also like digital because i can keep the lady down the road
with a mni lab employed. very few people make prints anymore
so i want to help, one print at a time, and because i like to make xerox prints
and wax them, and make something analog from them.
there are no rules anymore, there aren't any this is better or that is better, for me at least
there are a lot of ways to make photographic images now, and i think that is great, that way
it is only one's imagination that is holding them back, not the ways to make an image.
unfortunately lots and lots and lots of people use equipment ( doesnt'matter what kind it is)
as a reason for making something, they seem to have it backwards ( IMHO )
the camera, or format or media shouldn't be the reason, instead of the end result, the thing they made being the reason

whatever you end up making+doing, don't forget to have fun, that is the most important thing.
john
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom