Why not a film camera with an EVF?

[Crimeo]

I fundamentally disagree.
But they do give different results, so I understand why people use them sometimes, and prefer them sometimes.

I see a couple different people not agreeing, yet giving zero ways that an OVF is ever even 1% more accurate in any way...

To be clear, obviously it's more accurate of what the world looks like to a human eyeball, but what we need the tool to do for our craft is to preview what the positive (unedited negative flipped) will look like. If I want to see what the actual world looks like to a human eye, I can simply lower the camera down away from my eye for $0 and no equipment weight.

An OVF improves upon "no camera at all" by showing framing, focus plane, and DOF preview, but an EVF also does these same things + more on top and minus nothing.

 

[George Mann]

What I have suggested is to stick with optical viewfinders, but to add electronic overlays to aid in focusing and composition.

We can even add an evaluative exposure overlay that initiates with a press of a button.

 

[Don_ih]

This isn't worth 4 pages of discussion. Apart from being impractical, it's pointless. I guess it'd be fine for someone who doesn't understand exposure. Even then, it'd be limited benefit.

 

[Crimeo]

This isn't worth 4 pages of discussion. Apart from being impractical, it's pointless. I guess it'd be fine for someone who doesn't understand exposure. Even then, it'd be limited benefit.

Same question to you as others saying something similar: If previews of exposure, color, histograms, etc. are of little to no value, why did EVFs and mirrorless utterly sweep the industry 100%?

Mirrorless cameras save maybe like 100-150g of weight, most people don't adapt vintage lenses, and cost is a pretty silly explanation since they don't even cost less and you are rebuying a whole new ecosystem from scratch. The EVFs were pretty clearly the main benefit --> universally embraced revolution in cameras

And when I go just ask AI summaries or wikipedia or some dpreview summary or anything or mirrorless vs DSLRs, without leading or biasing questions, EVFs are overwhelmingly the number one reason focused on for why the shift. This is also consistent with historical sea change from rangefinders being popular to almost non-existent: better preview of the scene killed them off, entirely just that. What do you claim to know differently from all this?

 

[_T_]

If you read the thread you’ll see that nearly every poster doesn’t want what you’re proposing.

So why doesn’t it already exist? Very little demand. Probably so little demand that you’re literally the first and maybe only person asking about it.

 

[Crimeo]

If you read the thread you’ll see that nearly every poster doesn’t want what you’re proposing.

So why doesn’t it already exist? Very little demand. Probably so little demand that you’re literally the first and maybe only person asking about it.

I didn't post a poll, I asked why. "I don't wanna for my own reasons" isn't really a why answer. And "I don't want it, and my reason is [thing that is objectively not true, like "OVFs preview the image better"]" is not very compelling either.

 

[_T_]

I didn't post a poll, I asked why. "I don't wanna for my own reasons" isn't really a why answer. And "I don't want it, and my reason is [thing that is objectively not true, like "OVFs preview the image better"]" is not very compelling either.

You don’t want to know why. You want to prove to us that your idea is good.

We don’t like your idea

 

[gbroadbridge]

And when I go just ask AI summaries or wikipedia or some dpreview summary or anything or mirrorless vs DSLRs, without leading or biasing questions, EVFs are overwhelmingly the number one reason focused on for why the shift

Because all of those things are positive feedback loops - self congratulatory circular reasoning.

People just like to buy crap, and then have that impulse buy rationalised by someone or anything.

 

[Don_ih]

Same question to you as others saying something similar: If previews of exposure, color, histograms, etc. are of little to no value, why did EVFs and mirrorless utterly sweep the industry 100%?

Easier to make? Fewer moving parts? Focusing with an EVF is terrible - it's fine with an autofocus lens but total crap with a genuine manual focus lens and no focus assist.

Seriously. Mirrorless cameras are simpler and cheaper to make than DSLRs. Just think about it - it's obvious.

And none of those are "sweeping the industry" currently. That industry is all but dying.

Your idea is a fun thought exercise but totally impossible to sell.

 

[Crimeo]

Because all of those things are positive feedback loops - self congratulatory circular reasoning.

People just like to buy crap, and then have that impulse buy rationalised by someone or anything.

Great, so it wouldn't even matter if this was a good product or not by this logic, "people just like to buy crap" and will buy it whether it is or isn't... right? Or do you actually think people prefer good products, not any random object? If so, that brings us back to an actual answer why you don't like EVFs.

Easier to make? Fewer moving parts? Focusing with an EVF is terrible - it's fine with an autofocus lens but total crap with a genuine manual focus lens and no focus assist.

Seriously. Mirrorless cameras are simpler and cheaper to make than DSLRs. Just think about it - it's obvious.

• Easier to make: Irrelevant to the consumer choosing to buy EVFs and mirrorless over OVFs and DSLRs, does not explain them flocking in droves for the former over the latter to the point of 100% market dominance (see last bullet for cost)
• Fewer moving parts: Technically not "irrelevant" but near-zero relevance to the consumer (see last bullet for cost)
• Manual focus: is almost universally cited by any summary as a massive advantage of EVFs, not the other way around. Because of Focus peaking and magnification. Split prisms can also easily be displayed for the same experience as OVFs, and it has been tried (by Fuji), but people apparently don't like them as much as peaking and magnification.
• Cheaper to make: Irrelevant to the consumer unless it's carried through to MSRP, which it isn't consistently. Some are cheaper, some are more expensive. Examples:
  • Canon 6D on release in 2012 cost $2,100 (3,024 after inflation), A Canon R6 cost $2,500 in 2020 on release (3,200 after inflation)
  • A flagship Canon R1 cost $6,299 on release in 2024, the Canon EOS-1D X Mark III cost $6,499 on release in 2020 (7,864 equiv in 2024)
  • A rebel t6 in 2016 on release, cheapo basement beginner's APS-C camera cost $499 on release (686 today), while a canon R100 most beginner aps-c cost 480 in 2023 (504 today). Okay a bit cheaper for that one on the low end
  • And crucially, starting over in a new ecosystem is super expensive with the lenses and would wipe out any savings anyway even if they were all cheaper. Even if you just pick up a couple here or there and get an adapter (adapter also costs $250 or something btw)

A much stronger answer is "because of the like 12 different things EVFs do better"

And none of those are "sweeping the industry" currently.

Obviously I'm referring to % market share. Among people who wanted to buy a cameras, as a group they clearly considered mirrorless way better than DSLRs

 

[gbroadbridge]

Great, so it wouldn't even matter if this was a good product or not by this logic, "people just like to buy crap" and will buy it whether it is or isn't... right? Or do you actually think people prefer good products, not any random object?

I guess it just proves that there are a great many folks out there who place far more weight on the role of a camera in creating a photograph than is actually due.

 

[mshchem]

Because all of those things are positive feedback loops - self congratulatory circular reasoning.

People just like to buy crap, and then have that impulse buy rationalised by someone or anything.

That's for sure! More junk! I will say I don't care what dpreview etc has to say. Some of the "experts" don't know $hit.

 

[mshchem]

People will pay $50 for a roll of Velvia, and $30 for processing and ordinary scans. Same folks aren't going to pay over 2 K for a non-Leica new film camera.

It's the Rolex watch crowd now. Made in Germany.

It would be cool to see. You need volume production.

 

[wiltw]

About 3 million wanted to buy Mirrorless when Sony first coined the term as a means of distanguishin their product from the dSLR and popularizing the weight and bulk reduction (and even though Olympur and Panasonic had products that could be called 'mirrorless' 3-4 years sooner). About 5 Million want to buy them today. Hardly 'taking the industry storm' judging by AAGR, more like 'surviving better than dSLR'.

Many choose not to buy mirrorless because the expense vs. 'perceived benefit' equation does not make sense for them. Quite unlike the demand curve seen in the change from film to dSLR. The perceived benefit of the digital finder suits only a declining number of interchangeable-finder SLRs, which are now mostly owned by those seeking to shoot film with quite affordable old film SLRs that are cheaper to buy than any digital finder retrofit would cost. I cast no aspersion on the product concept, I merely assess the opportunity for its limited viability except to a very small niche...a smaller niche than the digital finder retrofit offered by ImBack.

But what do I know...I only spent a lifetime professionally assessing product marketability and doing everything I could to guide products to broaden their market appeal and maximize their financial return for companies. My last effort took a stalled product and grew it to amost 3x annual unit sales worth $110 Million in annual sales in 5 years..

 

[mshchem]

About 3 million wanted to buy Mirrorless when Sony first coined the term as a means of distanguishin their product from the dSLR and popularizing the weight and bulk reduction (and even though Olympur and Panasonic had products that could be called 'mirrorless' 3-4 years sooner). About 5 Million want to buy them today. Hardly 'taking the industry storm' judging by AAGR, more like 'surviving better than dSLR'.

Many choose not to buy mirrorless because the expense vs. 'perceived benefit' equation does not make sense for them. Quite unlike the demand curve seen in the change from film to dSLR. The perceived benefit of the digital finder suits only a declining number of interchangeable-finder SLRs, which are now mostly owned by those seeking to shoot film with quite affordable old film SLRs that are cheaper to buy than any digital finder retrofit would cost. I cast no aspersion on the product concept, I merely assess the opportunity for its limited viability except to a very small niche...a smaller niche than the digital finder retrofit offered by ImBack.
But what do I know...I only spent a lifetime professionally assessing product marketability and doing everything I could to guide products to broaden their market appeal to maximize their financial success for companies.

Did you assess something cool like Porsche or Ronco Pocket Fisherman?

Why do people want stainless steel kitchen appliances, ugly!

 

[wiltw]

Did you assess something cool like Porsche or Ronco Pocket Fisherman?

Why do people want stainless steel kitchen appliances, ugly!

Yes, the 911 is very much a small niche even compared to the larger niche BMW 3-series/X3. But both are premium priced. The 911 sells to 0.03% (or less) of the US population each year...
Can you sell a premium price new product to those with a low-end photography budget used car buyer, enough to make it worthwhile effort