Why isn't there a BW polyester paper?

[JPD]

Why are all RC black and white papers using a polyethylene (PE) base instead of archival polyester (PET)? There are colour papers and black and white films on PET base.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There was, briefly and experimentally, but never for sale. It would have been awfully expensive. Back when Ilford acquired the Swiss operation of Cibachrome, they took some of that glossy polyester stock and coated it in England with something equivalent to Multigrade IV emulsion. It was allegedly stunning. But you have to remember that back then there was not yet any good way to mount large high-gloss prints totally smooth, so anything even moderately large on display would have suffered from ripples or notorious "orange-peel". Mass producing something like that for sake of a commercial profit would have been a huge gamble. Today, merely acquiring that kind of base would be difficult. Only Fujiflex Supergloss remains in
the color realm itself.

 

[AgX]

Even two PET-based b&w papers (though direct-positive) have been on regular offer recently.

I can assure you the industry has been aware of such, but there has been no further interest in manufacture such.

 

[tessar]

The original Cibachrome was amazing. Filters were not difficult to balance, the developing process not much harder than b&w. The results were excellent, at least from the slides on my favorite film, Kodachrome 25.One big disadvantage: Cibachrome just couldn't handle any appreciable contrast.Flat lighting was the key.
It was a good product though. I liked using it within its liminations. Also, my decades-old prints have not faded as far as I can tell.

 

[Ian Grant]

I bought B&W paper from John Blishe on a PET base in the late 1970's/early 80's only available in one grade, like Cibachrome/Ilfochrome it wäs designed for normal use, but excelled with back projection which was a major use.

My uncle as advertising manager for. Harrods in Knightsbridge, London, they had light box adverts by every lift, it they changed one image after a fortnight it as all new prints, they said they faded albeit slightly.

The B&W material was really for graphics use, (it may well have been coated in Marly by Ciba/Ilford). It was a very versatile product and fantastic for the etch bleach process. This uses high contrast negative and the bleach removes exposed emulsion leaving a relief image which can be selectively dyed. It's far easier than it sounds works with any RC papers as well.

It was an applied photography technique, I should explain that there were a lot of specialist techniques that wouldn't make it into mainstream photography books. I have the Ilford and Kentmere datasheets on the Etch Bleach process.

Ian

 

[DREW WILEY]

There seems to be a bit of confusion between transparent base for backlit display and opaque for front-lit prints. Both still exist from Fuji, only transparent from Kodak. Cibachrome had both, in which case contrast was managed by routine masking protocol. If it was on a slide or transparency, I knew how to print it. Of course, I had some very powerful colorheads, needed to punch through up to .90 (3 stops) of mask density, onto what was itself a very slow medium. Dye bleach processes go clear back to Gasparcolor in the 1930's; some of these still exist, unfaded (dark storage).

 

[Ian Grant]

No confusion Drew there was a Cibachrome/Ilfochrome material for back lit prints. Opaline from John Blishen was an opaque white base and designed for back lighting.

Today the market leading (similar use) material but for Inkjet printing is Opaljet, it was the main reason Harman Technology/Ilford acquired Kentmere and is the only product they continued making. The Kentmere name has been dropped and it's now Harman Opaljet. All the Harman Kentmere B&W emulsions were new based on Ilford technology.

Ian

 

[JPD]

Mass producing something like that for sake of a commercial profit would have been a huge gamble. Today, merely acquiring that kind of base would be difficult.

And it would probably be expensive and sold in boxes of 25 papers or less. But they would save plenty of time and water compared to fiber paper and still be considered archival.

 

[AgX]

The base would be no problem technically. And decennia ago PET was a cost factor, today it is a mass plastic.

 

[DREW WILEY]

You can't just coat on any PET. It's product specific and has to be properly prepped. At twenty mils it certainly ain't cheap. I last paid a thousand bucks for a roll of Fuji Supergloss. I don't know how many Euros that is, but it's a hecka lot more than equivalent RC Fuji. If Ciba was still around, it would be considerably higher. It was on a completely different polyester base, darn electrostatic.