Why is XTOL so good

[Photo Engineer]

Thanks for correcting me, I fixed/edited my entry
My printer told me they were married OOPS!

And now my post looks like nonsense!

Thanks a bunch.

PE

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

One is not better than the other. It depends on what look you're going for. I use both XTOL and Rodinal. XTOL is great because it has finer grain, low toxicity and you can replenish it. If I want more "crispy" tonalities and grain, I use Rodinal.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I appreciate the comments so far, but what I am trying to learn is why does it have the favorable combination of speed, grain, and sharpness. Scientifically, what gives it those qualities?

I use replenished XTOL in a Jobo processors and keep the film at box speed. I tried a number of other developers but this works best for me and I keep it simple.

 

[removed account4]

And now my post looks like nonsense!

Thanks a bunch.

PE

Pleasure is mine

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I use replenished XTOL in a Jobo processors and keep the film at box speed. I tried a number of other developers but this works best for me and I keep it simple.

If I used the recommended 70ml/80sq inches to replenish, my working solution gets weaker over time. So I've added more than the recommended amount and it works out fine. You can't over replenish since the replenisher is the same working strength as the working solution.

 

[MattKing]

You can't over replenish since the replenisher is the same working strength as the working solution.

Technically, that is slightly not correct.
The working solution for X-Tol in a replenishment regime has reached a steady-state of seasoning and is a bit less active than fresh, one shot X-Tol. So if you over-replenish, you may find the activity creeping up slowly as you go.

 

[Pentode]

I'm no chemist by any stretch and I've done a lot less developing than many of you, I'm sure but my experience with Xtol was similar to John's. While I couldn't find any real fault with Xtol, the negatives were always a bit flatter than what I was looking for. Yes, they were sharp and yes, I was able to print with them just fine but aesthetically I've been happier with HC-110 B, Rodinal 1:25 and 1:50 and my main go-to, D-76 1:1. Tonality is subjective. We each like what we like.

 

[Richard Man]

Hi Richard Man

Seems one needs 100cc / roll/sheet &c

John

My 80-ml figure is from Kodak doc somewhere...

 

[Peter Schrager]

My 80-ml figure is from Kodak doc somewhere...

If I'm doing sheet film I just go with 100ml

 

[Richard Man]

OK, I just checked the latest XTOL PDF from Kodak, and it does say 100ml. This stuff is cheap, I will use 100ml from now on, unless I find contrary recommendations from Kodak.

 

[Cholentpot]

Honestly I keep finding my way back to D-76. I've not tried Xtol yet because my local place can't keep it in stock.

 

[LimeyKeith]

OK, I just checked the latest XTOL PDF from Kodak, and it does say 100ml. This stuff is cheap, I will use 100ml from now on, unless I find contrary recommendations from Kodak.

Do you have a link to this or a date for this PDF Richard? My copy of the data sheet J-109 dated 2008 says 70mL for each 80 sq inches (516 sq cm). Thanks

 

[Richard Man]

Do you have a link to this or a date for this PDF Richard? My copy of the data sheet J-109 dated 2008 says 70mL for each 80 sq inches (516 sq cm). Thanks

I think it's the same PDF (J-109 March 2008). However, the 70ml refers to Replenished amount, if you read the section on Diluted Developer, it says start with 100ml.

 

[LimeyKeith]

I think it's the same PDF (J-109 March 2008). However, the 70ml refers to Replenished amount, if you read the section on Diluted Developer, it says start with 100ml.

I think we may be at cross-purposes here Richard. I was thinking about the latter posts (#55 & #56) on a Replenished system about which Kodak says to top up the working solution by '..70mL for each 80 sq inches..' (although I use slightly more because of working solution loss due to carry-over). What you are refering to is Kodak's advice that for a '1-shot' use for 80 sq inches of film, irrespective of dilution, there must be at least 100mL of full strength solution in the mix.

 

[removed account4]

I think it's the same PDF (J-109 March 2008). However, the 70ml refers to Replenished amount, if you read the section on Diluted Developer, it says start with 100ml.

Reading this, maybe your misreading it, is what most people do/did,
so they used 70ml/sheet or roll thinking it was enough, not realizing
their developer would die ( maybe even at 1:3, never mind the higher dilutions )
because they didn't have enough developer in their tank &c, and so many people
did it that well, EK had to change the data sheets to make it
more visible 70ml is for replenishment and 100 ml is for processing ...
so in the end it might have been misreading or misunderstanding the older data sheet for minimal amounts
of developer used to process film that caused the "sudden death " ( user error )
and not the developer itself. It seems in some things problems arise from user error, not fundamental design flaws.

 

[Rudeofus]

Since no one knows how much Ascorbic Acid is used up during processing of a particular roll, nobody can tell for sure how much one must replenish. Whether you replenish 10ml per roll/sheet or start with fresh developer every time, you will reach a steady state at some point, and that steady state is what you have to dial in your process for.

 

[warden]

View attachment 219730 View attachment 219734

Flat negatives?
Molesting negatives and expecting anything good out of them?
If at least you were a chemist, would have added some credibility to your “findings”.

That has to be the joke of the day, thanks for the laugh

Wow those are two splendid images no matter what you used. Thank you for sharing them.

 

[NB23]

Wow those are two splendid images no matter what you used. Thank you for sharing them.

Thanks!

But in this case I believe it does matter... for example, the image of the man smiling was shot on delta 3200 and developed in Xtol. Minimum grain and fine contrast.

Thanks again

 

[MattKing]

People need to remember that when one is using a replenishment system, we are both adding new developer (and thus new development capacity) and removing old used developer (including all the byproducts in it). In addition, the volume of working solution you maintain is significantly larger than the amount you use each time you develop film. The 70 ml recommendation would be much higher if you weren't removing development byproducts each time you replenish.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Technically, that is slightly not correct.
The working solution for X-Tol in a replenishment regime has reached a steady-state of seasoning and is a bit less active than fresh, one shot X-Tol. So if you over-replenish, you may find the activity creeping up slowly as you go.

Really? I stand corrected. But how does that happen? My assumption is based on XTOL replenisher and working solution is the same strength. My logic (Which my wife sometimes think it's dodgy) is the strength of the solutions starts out the same, but how does it get stronger?

 

[mshchem]

Really? I stand corrected. But how does that happen? My assumption is based on XTOL replenisher and working solution is the same strength. My logic (Which my wife sometimes think it's dodgy) is the strength of the solutions starts out the same, but how does it get stronger?

The XTOL used in a replenished system is seasoned. If you are making a fresh tank with new XTOL you need to add a starter (which Kodak no longer makes) that adds bromides and chlorides that act as a restrainer.

The original instructions described replenishment with rotary (Jobo) processing. This can be a bit risky due to the aeration of the developer .

 

[MattKing]

To season fresh X-Tol, develop a few rolls of film in it. For my two litres of working solution, 5 rolls seem to do the trick.

 

[trendland]

Really? I stand corrected. But how does that happen? My assumption is based on XTOL replenisher and working solution is the same strength. My logic (Which my wife sometimes think it's dodgy) is the strength of the solutions starts out the same, but how does it get stronger?

It does go stronger because from further replunishment the concentration gets higher!
With each additional roll "over" recomandation (or each further replunishment after some further rolls) your developer strenghts goes "up" (come higher)!

If - yes of course "If" rudeofus is right (the recomanded replunisher rate is obviously a little bit more your developing need)

So that is complicate math for your dog - but easy for humans if you remember "log" - function!

with regards

PS : Are some people here from profession "math teacher" ?
(hope not)........!

 

[Rudeofus]

@trendland XTol replenishment makes your developer stronger than used developer, but not stronger than fresh XTol. Remember that XTol is replenished with itself, there's no special replenisher formula for XTol.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There is no need to exceed the Kodak recommendations of 70ml per 80 square inches of film just to make it stronger.