Why is T-Max so expensive in Canada?

[Don_ih]

What is a confectioning facility?

Where they cut down and perforate film to the various formats. Or a place that makes candy.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

?! What is Kodak Alaris' dependence on China?

Matt said "Eastman Kodak no longer has anything approaching the resources necessary to support a worldwide distribution and marketing effort for still films or the business that has now been bought by Sino Promise."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what he meant. Matt, can you clarify the arrangement? Does Sino Promise provide film to Alaris?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Where they cut down and perforate film to the various formats. Or a place that makes candy.

Yes. I'm more familiar with the second type.

 

[brbo]

Does Sino Promise provide film to Alaris?

No. Never has.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

No. Never has.

Ok I just looked it up. SIno is only a distributor for Alaris in China. So it seems Kodak in America still makes the film. But the problem with two markups still exists which may account for some of the higher prices. (The quote about Alaris being American is theirs.)

Business - Sino Promise Group​

http://www.sinopromise.com.cn › ...




Established in Hong Kong in 1993, the Sino Promise Group is the largest agent of the US company, Kodak Alaris, in the Greater China region.

 

[brbo]

People engaged in a hobby, unless they are wealthy, need to try to control their spending, since every part of it is an expense.

I'm far from wealthy and I still buy film (I print, too). Problem these days is that there are too many of us, so the film is mostly out of stock.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I'm far from wealthy and I still buy film (I print, too). Problem these days is that there are too many of us, so the film is mostly out of stock.

Is the problem there are too many of us or that there are manufacturing and distribution problems?

 

[Don_ih]

Is the problem there are too many of us or that there are manufacturing and distribution problems?

Fuji hasn't made any film since the pandemic started, apparently. There is definitely less film to go around.

I'm far from wealthy and I still buy film (I print, too).

But buying film and paper, if you're strictly doing it as a hobby, uses money you can spare - and that is limited, right?

 

[albireo]

Almost no one is enlarging the film, anyway, so why bother with it? -because it's cool?

Many reasons, here's just one: speaking for myself purely, I don't enlarge my colour film but I much prefer the colours I get from scanned+inverted Colorplus than those I was getting from the so-called 'Film Simulations' in my Fujifilm X-T20 mirrorless camera, which quite frankly sucked.

Taking digital pictures with a tiny OM2n (60$), a tiny 35mm Zuiko prime (20$), a roll of colour film (5$) and liking them them more than those I took with an over engineered $1500 digital camera = bliss.

 

[brbo]

Is the problem there are too many of us or that there are manufacturing and distribution problems?

There are too many of us for the current production. I'm bummed that "nobody is going to buy film at €15/roll" didn't materialize.

But buying film and paper, if you're strictly doing it as a hobby, uses money you can spare - and that is limited, right?

If you need to ask that...

 

[Don_ih]

Many reasons, here's just one: speaking for myself purely, I don't enlarge my colour film but I much prefer the colours I get from scanned+inverted Colorplus

Strictly speaking, I wasn't talking about people who are actually discriminating on that basis. Most people take photos to get a photo - the way it looks is secondary to them. That includes most of the people who like film because it limits their shots or slows them down or makes them think - all of those things can be done with a digital camera.

I know there are some people who genuinely prefer the colours they get from film, etc. But at what point does that cease to matter? If film becomes so precious that you need to conserve it for the most special of images, won't that render it unusable?

And you can only expect the "Film Simulation" filters to get better.

 

[brbo]

But at what point does that cease to matter? If film becomes so precious that you need to conserve it for the most special of images, won't that render it unusable?

Obviously not at €10/roll. And not at €15/roll.

And if €30/roll still won't be that point, then that is MY problem, not Kodak's.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Strictly speaking, I wasn't talking about people who are actually discriminating on that basis. Most people take photos to get a photo - the way it looks is secondary to them. That includes most of the people who like film because it limits their shots or slows them down or makes them think - all of those things can be done with a digital camera.

I know there are some people who genuinely prefer the colours they get from film, etc. But at what point does that cease to matter? If film becomes so precious that you need to conserve it for the most special of images, won't that render it unusable?

And you can only expect the "Film Simulation" filters to get better.

I love Velvia 50. Now that I'm shooting 4x5 and it's not available in the USA. So I have to buy it directly from Japan, a real bummer and very costly what with shipping. And, Fujifilm is going to stop production of 4x5 I think in 2023. I've got a box of 20 sheets in my freezer right now waiting for the right moment. I might be dead before the right moment happens.
4x5 Velvia 50: https://www.flickr.com/search/?sort...s=velvia504x5&user_id=55760757@N05&view_all=1

 

[pentaxuser]

So you are saying that the engineers at Kodak are so stupid that they cannot find their way out of bed in the morning without help? That is what you are stating in your post. If the cost of quality film is too high for you, you need to change what and how often you photograph or get a new hobby. I am willing to pay what it takes to use film that I can count on having consistent high quality.

???????Seriously? What I said had nothing to do with the competency of the engineers to find their way out of bed. Even I can still manage that and I am not an engineer

Now in an attempt to calm things down and to make what I was saying clearer, is that if there is no way to reduce costs anywhere in the chain of film manufacture from raw materials to finished product and its distribution to the eventual consumer, then if that irreducible price is still too high to generate enough sales to make the business viable then the business ceases


I suspect that a second reading of what I was saying will pay dividends but somehow it triggered a fight reaction as it was seen as an unwarranted attack on the good folks at Kodak who had to be defended

I am sure there are good and very competent folks at Kodak. Equally I am sure that in any section of any company of more than a few dozen employees there are less good and less competent folks as well

The same I am sure applies to Fuji, Ilford and Foma to name but three out of thousands of other companies



pentaxuser

 

[braxus]

Kerrisdale Cameras in Langley still has a good stock of film. They have the stuff the other stores in the chain are out of. They just don't sell as much film in that store.

Because of price, I have been ordering all my film from B&H and having them import it for me via courier. It still ends up way cheaper then if I had bought it at our local stores here. Only exception is Ilford, where the Canadian distributor sells it quite cheap.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Kerrisdale Cameras in Langley still has a good stock of film. They have the stuff the other stores in the chain are out of. They just don't sell as much film in that store.

Because of price, I have been ordering all my film from B&H and having them import it for me via courier. It still ends up way cheaper then if I had bought it at our local stores here. Only exception is Ilford, where the Canadian distributor sells it quite cheap.

Does the Langley branch have any TMY-2? Coquitlam branch hasn't had any for months.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks for the update, Matt. The problem as I see it is everyone tries to maximize their profits. That's the way the world works of course without breaking the whole product. So Sino Promise, formerly Eastman Kodak, who now makes the film for Alaris, will keep their prices as high as possible to Alaris. Alaris has nowhere else to get the film. So now that their earnings are being squeezed by Sino, they have to raise their markups to retailers to make a reasonable profit. So there's a double whammy keeping prices higher for retailers and subsequently we photographers. Two markups when Ilford has one. Plus, the first markup is at the mercy of Sino's greed that Alaris can do little about because they're stuck with Sino.

Alaris should have bought Kodak rather than letting Sino buy them. That way they'd control the manufacturing and their overall costs. Now they're dependent on a Chinese supplier who will dump Alaris the first legal chance they get. Dumb move I think in the long term. My guess is that the owners of Alaris, the retirees getting their pensions, didn't want to give up any of it. They were more concerned with their current pensions than long-term company growth. Do you know why they didn't buy Kodak?

Sino Promise didn't buy Kodak. Eastman Kodak is still Eastman Kodak, and they continue to make film as the photographic part of their business, which is otherwise primarily in the commercial (non-photographic) printing industry.
Eastman Kodak still owns the Kodak brand, although they have licensed its use for a lot of products, including the photographic products that they only wholesale now.
And Eastman Kodak is publicly traded, but otherwise not for sale.
Sino Promise bought the Kodak branded photo-chemical and colour photographic business from Kodak Alaris. Kodak Alaris had owned and operated the the Kodak branded photo-chemical and colour photographic business since their owners - the Kodak Limited pension fund - received that business as part of the Eastman Kodak bankruptcy. Those businesses included both product (colour paper) that had been manufactured by Eastman Kodak or its subsidiaries at plants owned or leased by Eastman Kodak prior to the bankruptcy, as well as the photochemical business, where Eastman Kodak was primarily not doing its own manufacture.

 

[MattKing]

The thing that should scare Alaris is that their only supplier is now Chinese. While Eastman Kodak, an American company, was bound to secure and effective American bankruptcy laws and US courts to enforce them, Alaris now has to depend on Chinese commercial law to protect them by keeping the bankruptcy terms. Knowing how China has disregarded commercial contracts in the past, that's a very iffy situation for Alaris.

Eastman Kodak is a publicly traded US company based in Rochester NY.
Kodak Alaris happens to be based in Rochester NY as well, despite being UK owned, but of course, as a worldwide marketing and distribution entity, its resources and workforce are much more widely spread - certainly more widely spread than Eastman Kodak.

 

[MattKing]

Ok I just looked it up. SIno is only a distributor for Alaris in China. So it seems Kodak in America still makes the film. But the problem with two markups still exists which may account for some of the higher prices. (The quote about Alaris being American is theirs.)

Business - Sino Promise Group​

http://www.sinopromise.com.cn › ...




Established in Hong Kong in 1993, the Sino Promise Group is the largest agent of the US company, Kodak Alaris, in the Greater China region.

That information only refers to Sino Promise's pre-existing distribution business. Since they purchased the Kodak branded photo-chemical and colour photographic business from Kodak Alaris, they are now the owners of that business - and that was the business I was referring to when I posted the following (note the "or"):

Matt said "Eastman Kodak no longer has anything approaching the resources necessary to support a worldwide distribution and marketing effort for still films or the business that has now been bought by Sino Promise."

Sino Promise is also the owner of, or part of a group of owners of manufacturing facilities in China. It appears they were already actually manufacturing a large proportion of the Kodak branded paper and photo-chemicals for Kodak Alaris before they bought that business from Kodak Alaris.

 

[Rob Skeoch]

I purchased five rolls of TMAX400 120 at a retail specialist in Hamilton earlier this month. It was just over $18 a roll. To be honest I was shocked it was so high. I had planned to shoot TMAX400 for an up-coming project but have re-considered and will be using HP5 instead. I just ordered 30 rolls of HP5 at $7.50. Not sure the best way to expose HP5, and what to develop it at, but I can learn.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There is no serious alternative for Kodak negative colour film and there won't be any for at least a few more years (and even that is a big "if"). Adox is selling a nice (but worse in every technical parameter) colour negative film at almost twice the price of Kodak Alaris' consumer film. Orwo's (limited run!) offering is even more expensive.

You are basing your conclusions too much on the comparatively expensive (at the moment) BW film from Kodak. But that is just the problem at the supply side. Eastman Kodak has a bottle neck in confectioning facilities. Until that is resolved, Kodak Alaris will mostly buy those films from Eastman Kodak that they can get the highest margins on - colour negative film. Everything else, BW and slide film in the formats that Fuji hasn't discontinued yet, is basically just to stay in the market and sold at higher than competition prices.

Your statement would have been stronger if it had read:

You are baising your conclusions too much on the comparatively expensive (at the moment) BW film from Kodak.​

 

[Sirius Glass]

Frankly the rising cost of food and fuel not just nationally but globally are a much greater concern than the rising cost of Kodak film. If people cannot buy food and or fuel, they are not going to be buying film. We have much bigger problems today.

 

[GregY]

I purchased five rolls of TMAX400 120 at a retail specialist in Hamilton earlier this month. It was just over $18 a roll. To be honest I was shocked it was so high. I had planned to shoot TMAX400 for an up-coming project but have re-considered and will be using HP5 instead. I just ordered 30 rolls of HP5 at $7.50. Not sure the best way to expose HP5, and what to develop it at, but I can learn.

Where were you finding HP5 at that price Rob?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Thanks Matt for the clarification regarding Sino and Alaris. Do you think that the extra mark-up that Kodak charges Alaris may account for some of the higher costs Alaris gets for the Kodak film?

 

[brbo]

Fuji sells re-labeled Kodak film cheaper than Kodak Alaris sells the same film.

I'd take a wild guess and say that Eastman Kodak isn't the main source of film price increases we are seeing, although they do state in their last financial report that higher revenues in segment that includes still film were due to volume improvements and higher pricing. Favourable effects of pricing have been identified also in their past financial statements so it's good that Eastman Kodak can at least get something from quite substantial price increases in last years.