Why is T-Max so expensive in Canada?

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Craig

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Looking at my local retailer, a 120 roll of TMX is $21.36, while a roll of Delta 100 is $9.82; while FP4 is even cheaper at $8. Sheet film is similar, Kodak is about $7 per sheet of 4x5, while Ilford is under $3.

It's been this way for as long as I can remember, Ilford has always been substantially cheaper than Kodak, but lately the difference between Kodak and Ilford has been getting larger. Why is this? Is Kodak trying to justify shutting down film production by pricing itself out of the market?

I was looking at some of the European retailers, and there I also saw that Kodak was approximately twice the price of Ilford.
 

abruzzi

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In the US (well, Freestyle) you see the following prices: $13.69 TMAX; $7.99 Delta 100; $7.49 FP-4.

So there is a similar pricing gap--ok, not quite twice, but still a significant gap. The rest could be importer fees, exchange rates, or other things.
 

MattKing

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There are no Kodak film distributors in Canada who are selling any volume. As a result, the price that the retailers have to pay is far too high.
Beau Photo in Vancouver have in the past told me that for a lot of products - not specifically Kodak products - the retail price charged by B&H or Adorama or Freestyle is so much lower than the price charged by Canadian wholesale distributors it is often worth their while to pay retail in the US and incur the costs and hassle of importing product themselves, because even with their standard margin, the shelf price is lower than if they bought from the authorized Canadian distributors.
In addition, for many products, the Canadian distributors have minimum order quantities that aren't any where near practical for small stores. That is why Beau sometimes buys some films from creative sources - for example the distributors that sell carded 35mm film to supermarkets and drug stores often have much more reasonable minimum order quantities.
On the subject of black and white film specifically, I expect as well that black and white (which is relatively small in business volume) is having to compete with the much, much, much larger volume of colour film being manufactured by Eastman Kodak for Eastman Kodak's currently very stretched resources.
 
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Craig

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It would be interesting to know the difference in factory gate pricing, if the difference in Kodak is a higher selling price by Eastman, or just in the distribution chain.

I think Amplis still distributes Ilford, too bad thay can't take on Kodak too, as that model seems to work for Ilford.

It's an odd situation when Fujichrome Velvia is $7.50 a roll cheaper than T-max.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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A roll of TMY-2 120 was $15.99 at Kerrisdale Cameras in the mall near me. They haven't had any in stock for months, though. It's not even listed in that format on their website. Not only is the stuff priced beyond ridiculous, we can't even get it. No worries, though. Prefer Ilford films.
 

MattKing

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Kerrisdale will order that film for you. They won't stock it, because it is hard to sell.
I can guarantee that Kodak Alaris pays Eastman Kodak the same amount for the film, no matter where it is going. But the amount that Kodak Alaris charges to then sell that film to the different distributors in the various corners of the globe will vary greatly, depending on factors like shipping and importation costs and size of order.
I'm pretty sure that Harman sells a lot more black and white still film than Eastman Kodak does. And Harman products end up going eventually to far fewer retail destinations than Eastman Kodak film products go to. For those reasons, Harman has elected to go the exclusive distributorship route, while Kodak Alaris will sell to multiple distributors, who themselves could end up keeping prices low through competition, but don't always do so.
The exclusive distribution route has advantages and pitfalls. Harman knows a lot about the pitfalls. When their US distributor (Wynit) suddenly went under, it left them with huge problems and, I suspect, a huge amount of uncollectible receivables. As the US is Harman's largest market, I suspect that Wynit's collapse may have come close to putting Harman out of business. Kodak Alaris' choice of multiple competing distributors avoids that particular problem.
In the case of Amplis, I'd be surprised if their exclusive distribution agreement with Harman doesn't prevent them from distributing Kodak film, or for that matter any other competing brand of film. I note that their list of brands doesn't include any other film brands.
And additionally, and quite frustratingly, it is my opinion that the big New York and California internet retailers are not particularly healthy for the industry. So much of what we price using them as the comparison they sell at incredibly tiny margins - margins that will not support even the most efficient of small retailers. Andrew Bacon has posted here that he, as a retailer entitled to purchase wholesale from Harman's current exclusive US distributor (the distribution part of Roberts Camera), essentially pays the same or very near to the same wholesale price as B&H has as their retail price. Small retailers can't survive on 1 or 2 percent margins!
FWIW, my sources indicate that Eastman Kodak, for one, is currently being slammed with increases in costs, shipping difficulties and difficulties in obtaining critical components in a timely manner. As an example, the cost of the cellulose triacetate support for most of our films has jumped incredibly, and there is a real shortage of supply. In addition, they are faced with a desire to increase their workforce in a market where it is difficult to hire qualified staff and their salary demands are significantly higher than two years ago.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Kerrisdale will order that film for you. They won't stock it, because it is hard to sell.
I can guarantee that Kodak Alaris pays Eastman Kodak the same amount for the film, no matter where it is going. But the amount that Kodak Alaris charges to then sell that film to the different distributors in the various corners of the globe will vary greatly, depending on factors like shipping and importation costs and size of order.
I'm pretty sure that Harman sells a lot more black and white still film than Eastman Kodak does. And Harman products end up going eventually to far fewer retail destinations than Eastman Kodak film products go to. For those reasons, Harman has elected to go the exclusive distributorship route, while Kodak Alaris will sell to multiple distributors, who themselves could end up keeping prices low through competition, but don't always do so.
The exclusive distribution route has advantages and pitfalls. Harman knows a lot about the pitfalls. When their US distributor (Wynit) suddenly went under, it left them with huge problems and, I suspect, a huge amount of uncollectible receivables. As the US is Harman's largest market, I suspect that Wynit's collapse may have come close to putting Harman out of business. Kodak Alaris' choice of multiple competing distributors avoids that particular problem.
In the case of Amplis, I'd be surprised if their exclusive distribution agreement with Harman doesn't prevent them from distributing Kodak film, or for that matter any other competing brand of film. I note that their list of brands doesn't include any other film brands.
And additionally, and quite frustratingly, it is my opinion that the big New York and California internet retailers are not particularly healthy for the industry. So much of what we price using them as the comparison they sell at incredibly tiny margins - margins that will not support even the most efficient of small retailers. Andrew Bacon has posted here that he, as a retailer entitled to purchase wholesale from Harman's current exclusive US distributor (the distribution part of Roberts Camera), essentially pays the same or very near to the same wholesale price as B&H has as their retail price. Small retailers can't survive on 1 or 2 percent margins!
FWIW, my sources indicate that Eastman Kodak, for one, is currently being slammed with increases in costs, shipping difficulties and difficulties in obtaining critical components in a timely manner. As an example, the cost of the cellulose triacetate support for most of our films has jumped incredibly, and there is a real shortage of supply. In addition, they are faced with a desire to increase their workforce in a market where it is difficult to hire qualified staff and their salary demands are significantly higher than two years ago.

Kerrisdale ordered it for me several months ago. No sign of it. But that's okay. I have about 10 rolls in the freezer...and I'll keep using Ilford films. For the price of TMY-2, I can buy two rolls of HP5 😀
 

pentaxuser

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Either the price charged in Canada is what is justified for the kind of reasons Matt outlines or the charge is currently what the seller thinks the market will bear

If it's the latter then the test is simple: buyers vote with their feet, refuse to open their wallets and walk away. This does tend to concentrate the minds of all of those in the selling chain

OK I understand the therapeutic benefits of a "mass moan" but there comes a point when diminishing returns sets in on those therapeutic benefits, doesn't there?

I have stopped railing against the bulk roll price of TMax being higher than cassette prices and feel all the better for it. 🙂

pentaxuser
 

Sirius Glass

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I'm still wondering why eyeglasses cost as much as a high-quality camera lens?

Because Kodak, Ilford, Fuji and Foma are in league against us and they are jacking up the price.
 

gone

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I'd buy as much as that Delta 100 as I could at those prices. It's a better film than T-Max, at least to my eyes. I've only shot one roll so far, but those negs are unlike any that I ever developed. Really clean and sharp, almost seem lit from the inside. I have my 2nd roll in a camera now, can't wait to see the results.
 

Eric Rose

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When I worked part time at a local camera store during the mid 70's we could buy our products retail out of NY, NY landed for less than Canadian distributors would sell it to us.

Canada has made the "middleman" into an art form. Each one along the chain tries to best the last in extracting more and more money away from the retailer.

In talking with friends who own one of the largest photo retail stores in Canada, nothing has changed.
 
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Craig

Craig

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I can guarantee that Kodak Alaris pays Eastman Kodak the same amount for the film, no matter where it is going.
I wonder what the difference is between the Eastman price FOB Rochester Vs the Harman price FOB Mobberly? I doubt we'll ever know accurately though.
I expect that any material cost increases, such as acetate base will be affecting both players reasonably equally.
 

MattKing

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I expect that any material cost increases, such as acetate base will be affecting both players reasonably equally.

Probably, although the differences between the locations, the equipment and the products mean that the difficulties they deal with probably have different impacts.
As an example, Eastman Kodak's cine film manufacture alone probably consumes way more acetate base than Harman uses.
 

John Wiegerink

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Do you have Costco in Germany? Their glasses are very reasonably priced compared to any opticians.

Not just Costco or Sam's, but checkout Zenni Optical. I am going to have corrective cataract surgery soon, but need new glasses in the meantime. I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars for something I'd have no use for in a few months. A friend only buys his from Zenni and told me that's what he would do if it were me. Shorten the story, I now have a great pair of glasses for under $45.00. Hard to believe! Sorry, way off-topic I know.
I hate to say this, but I think the answer to our “great films cheaper” problem will eventually come from China.
 

Paul Verizzo

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Not just Costco or Sam's, but checkout Zenni Optical. I am going to have corrective cataract surgery soon, but need new glasses in the meantime. I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars for something I'd have no use for in a few months. A friend only buys his from Zenni and told me that's what he would do if it were me. Shorten the story, I now have a great pair of glasses for under $45.00. Hard to believe! Sorry, way off-topic I know.
I hate to say this, but I think the answer to our “great films cheaper” problem will eventually come from China.

I've been using Zenni optical for about 8 years. Many times. Always very pleased with service and quality.
 

pentaxuser

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Isn't the essential key question for Kodak and its whole supply chain down which goes down to the eventual consumer and his wallet is: Can it do anything to reduce its prices to those closer to Ilford in b&w film? I used to buy Tmax 400 but now there is no way it is worth the premium I am required to pay v what I am required to pay for Ilford.

Maybe I am in such a minority that my sentiment and subsequent vote with my wallet really doesn't matter but I don't think so. Of course if the market is now C41 colour then currently the impression I get here on Photrio is that there are consumers who will pay whatever it takes and more crucially will continue to buy the same amount of C41 that they did in times past when C41 was an affordable ( to me at least) price

Is this a false impression? Certainly if there is enough consumers for whom the demand for C41 is inelastic then it may be the Kodak is assured that the revenue from C41 will always be enough and it has nothing to fear.It becomes the genuine monopolistic supplier as would be the case in having for instance the sole monopoly of water supply

Fortunately there may be enough signs that sole supplier status or anything like it will never be conferred

pentaxuser
 

GregY

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In the US (well, Freestyle) you see the following prices: $13.69 TMAX; $7.99 Delta 100; $7.49 FP-4.

So there is a similar pricing gap--ok, not quite twice, but still a significant gap. The rest could be importer fees, exchange rates, or other things.

At B&H the prices of Ilford are close to Kodak. (35mm)
Tmax 100 = 9.99. / TMY2 + = 10.99
Delta 100= 11.23 / Delta 400 = 10.99
 

Sirius Glass

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Kodak started jacking their T film prices about 2015. This is nothing new.

Raising prices to stay in business is not jacking up the prices, it is good business and beats going out of business. You might even do that yourself.
 

pentaxuser

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If you have to raise prices to stay in business but doing so raises the price beyond what the bulk of consumers are prepared to pay then you go out of business anyway, don't you, unless you can find a way of configuring your business to reduce costs in enough places in the chain?

pentaxuser
 
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