Why Ilford printing paper has not the 3/2 ratio in dimensions like of a 35mm film

[Sirius Glass]

Even in Paris they still serve beer in pints!

Those are half liters.

 

[MarkS]

"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them".

 

[snusmumriken]

Those are half liters.

My point is really that the old units were typically human in scale, and decimal division is not always an advantage. Nobody orders 473 cl of beer. Given that no photo paper size will ever suit every purpose, it’s easier to settle on 10x8 inches than A4’s 8.27 x 11.69 inches or 210 x 297 mm.

 

[MattKing]

I expect the "half litre" pints are because people are used to the phrase and a memory of the appearance of a "pint of beer" rather than any attachment to a non-metric measurement.
Particularly since a "pint" in England is/was 20 ounces!

 

[Sirius Glass]

I expect the "half litre" pints are because people are used to the phrase and a memory of the appearance of a "pint of beer" rather than any attachment to a non-metric measurement.
Particularly since a "pint" in England is/was 20 ounces!

Exactly my point. Cheers

 

[snusmumriken]

Exactly my point. Cheers

Using ‘pint’ because you are accustomed to the phrase and appearance of a pint is attachment to that non-metric measurement, surely? Anyway, you are both missing my point.

[As for the pint = 20 fluid ounces, it was of course not pretty, as it was historically a bodge to marry two units that had evolved independently … but by this definition a fluid ounce of water weighed an ounce, much as a litre of water weighs a kilogram. The different USA definition makes a pint of water weigh a pound, but a US fluid ounce does not weigh an ounce.]

 

[MattKing]

Using ‘pint’ because you are accustomed to the phrase and appearance of a pint is attachment to that non-metric measurement, surely?

What I was trying to indicate, is that the "pint" of beer has for most younger people around here become divorced from any connection with the generic measurement of a volume. It is only used for beer (around here) and people who have no real knowledge of what a pint is - they exclusively use metric volumetric usage - think it only refers to beer. They would never measure any other liquids using pints.

 

[koraks]

Given that no photo paper size will ever suit every purpose, it’s easier to settle on 10x8 inches than A4’s 8.27 x 11.69 inches or 210 x 297 mm.

How so? Do you think that a 20.32 x 25.4 cm paper size is somehow easier to manage than 21.0 x 29.7 cm?
8x10 might be easier to settle on for you because you apparently grew up around the imperial system. A large part of the world hasn't, and for us, there's nothing advantageous to 8x10 over A4 etc. But you've just aptly demonstrated one of the main forces that has kept any transition of imperial countries to metric: people tend to hang on to what they're used to. That's fine, but realize very well that it's not always necessarily better - or worse. You cut 8x10 down twice and you end up with fractional measurements even in the imperial system. Unless you're uncareful with the paper cutter, nobody gets hurt because of it.

When it comes to photo paper, I think what's the easiest to settle on is what's available. For instance, I use a lot of Fomabrom, and around here, that tends to be easily available in either 17.8x24.0cm or 24.0x30.5cm. 8x10" is also being sold, but retailers don't stock it as much around here as the other sizes mentioned.

And guess what? I sometimes buy 18x24cm. Sometimes it's 13x18cm. Then sometimes I feel attracted to that box of 24x30cm. I even have some 8x10" paper lying about the place. And if it needs to be bigger - hey, there's sizes for that as well. Why settle in the first place? Fortunately, there's no requirement anywhere that tells me I can only buy paper in a single size.

 

[Don_ih]

17.8x24.0cm or 24.0x30.5cm

Even here in Canada, where the Metric system has been half-heartedly adopted for around 50 years, those measurements are not intuitive to most people. Even though people get taught to measure using cm in school, and even though there are stupidly 12 inches in a foot, since the inch is a larger measurement, it is easier for people to visualize. You can more easily visualize a smaller quantity than a larger one.

Imagine 12 chicken eggs.

Imagine 30 quail eggs.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It's difficult to switch to the metric system for Americans because when you grew up seeing one way, it's hard to mentally see and estimate to a different standard.

Imagine switching to a decimal clock where there are ten am hours and ten pm hours to a day and 100 minutes to an hour? How long would it take you to drive to the store?

 

[snusmumriken]

How so? Do you think that a 20.32 x 25.4 cm paper size is somehow easier to manage than 21.0 x 29.7 cm?
8x10 might be easier to settle on for you because you apparently grew up around the imperial system. A large part of the world hasn't, and for us, there's nothing advantageous to 8x10 over A4 etc. But you've just aptly demonstrated one of the main forces that has kept any transition of imperial countries to metric: people tend to hang on to what they're used to. That's fine, but realize very well that it's not always necessarily better - or worse. You cut 8x10 down twice and you end up with fractional measurements even in the imperial system. Unless you're uncareful with the paper cutter, nobody gets hurt because of it.

When it comes to photo paper, I think what's the easiest to settle on is what's available. For instance, I use a lot of Fomabrom, and around here, that tends to be easily available in either 17.8x24.0cm or 24.0x30.5cm. 8x10" is also being sold, but retailers don't stock it as much around here as the other sizes mentioned.

And guess what? I sometimes buy 18x24cm. Sometimes it's 13x18cm. Then sometimes I feel attracted to that box of 24x30cm. I even have some 8x10" paper lying about the place. And if it needs to be bigger - hey, there's sizes for that as well. Why settle in the first place? Fortunately, there's no requirement anywhere that tells me I can only buy paper in a single size.

You are misunderstanding me, I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't intend to suggest that 10x8 was a better size than A4 for photo paper. Neither will suit every purpose. What I did mean is that anyone must find it easier to remember the numbers 8 and 10, than 20.32 and 25.40. It is of course equally easy to remember 'A4' and 'pint'. They are only labels. Even when they relate to archaic units, no harm is done by using them. It doesn't imply some kind of anti-Napoleonic resistance movement.

For the record, my entire education and scientific career involved SI metric units only. I learned about Imperial units along the way as need arose.

 

[koraks]

Thanks for the additional explanation @snusmumriken - I think I see what you mean now. It's not about the format as such, but how we call it, right?

 

[snusmumriken]

Thanks for the additional explanation @snusmumriken - I think I see what you mean now. It's not about the format as such, but how we call it, right?

Well, two things:
1) The available formats can never suit all purposes, given different formats, cropping, margin preferences, etc.
2) The descriptor being in whole inches is human rather than perversely archaic. See also @Don Heisz's post #109 above.

 

[MattKing]

It's difficult to switch to the metric system for Americans because when you grew up seeing one way, it's hard to mentally see and estimate to a different standard.

Imagine switching to a decimal clock where there are ten am hours and ten pm hours to a day and 100 minutes to an hour? How long would it take you to drive to the store?

My public school and university time coincided with the time when much of the everyday metrification started really happening in Canada.
As a result, my ability to mentally see and estimate in either system is probably impaired .
I just wish that we would finish the job - stop advertising prices per pound and then having both on the shelf sign, but only the metric on the receipt.
We don't see miles per hour anymore on our road signs or speedometers - and we survived!
By the way, my then young nieces were confounded by clock faces when they visited our home - they were only comfortable telling the time using digital clocks.
And as for the answer to your question Alan, just tell your Tesla to get you there, and you can stop worrying about it

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just tell your Tesla where to go and it wanders off onto a dead-end desert road and collides with a one-horned bull it's not programmed to recognize. Beverage containers? - just do what they deceptively do with salmon cans these day, and make them tapered. Same with the confusion over similar sizes of 4X5 and 9X12 cm sheet film. No need for two different holders, just make one size of tapered holder and tapered film, and slide it in harder if needed.

 

[Don_ih]

We don't see miles per hour anymore on our road signs or speedometers

In the town where I did my driver's test, there was one "Max 5 mph" sign on a sharp bend in a road. Many people got penalized for ignoring that sign, because it looked like some guy had nailed it to a post. No - it had been there about 40 years, and you were supposed to obey it.

Of course, you only had to slow down to about 8 kph.

 

[Sirius Glass]

It's difficult to switch to the metric system for Americans because when you grew up seeing one way, it's hard to mentally see and estimate to a different standard.

Imagine switching to a decimal clock where there are ten am hours and ten pm hours to a day and 100 minutes to an hour? How long would it take you to drive to the store?

Not a reason. Not even a worthwhile excuse. Everywhere else people were able to make the change without a brouhaha. People in the US just need to get over themselves.

You may want to do some research about the metric system before posting about converting to a decimal clock. That has never been seriously considered.

 

[Sirius Glass]

This problem is easily solved. Stop using 35mm cameras or change the 35mm format to one that matches the paper sizes.

 

[snusmumriken]

This problem is easily solved. Stop using 35mm cameras or change the 35mm format to one that matches the paper sizes.

Haha, the same would apply to 120 of course.

 

[snusmumriken]

You may want to do some research about the metric system before posting about converting to a decimal clock. That has never been seriously considered.

Oh yes it has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_time

 

[Don_ih]

You guys should try to read some architectural drawings where all the measurements are in mm.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

My public school and university time coincided with the time when much of the everyday metrification started really happening in Canada.
As a result, my ability to mentally see and estimate in either system is probably impaired .
I just wish that we would finish the job - stop advertising prices per pound and then having both on the shelf sign, but only the metric on the receipt.
We don't see miles per hour anymore on our road signs or speedometers - and we survived!

Yup, me as well.

At 62 I've pretty much converted, except for mountains are still in feet and boat travel is nautical miles.

 

[David R Williams]

...and, regardless of geography, we all refer to 35mm as 35mm. Not 1.3779527", so most of us should be able to visualize (visualise) how large 24mm and 35/36mm are.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

You guys should try to read some architectural drawings where all the measurements are in mm.

Once it gets that picky, wouldn't you need temperature adjustment tables for each material?

 

[Don_ih]

Once it gets that picky, wouldn't you need temperature adjustment tables for each material?

Those sorts of details are left to the engineers.