Why Ilford printing paper has not the 3/2 ratio in dimensions like of a 35mm film

Alan Edward Klein · Mar 9, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Not only is the metric system beyond the mental reach of people in the US, they call flat head screw drivers and Phillips screw drivers "minus screw drivers" and "plus screw drivers" respectively.

I never heard that.

DREW WILEY · Mar 9, 2023

Well it got rather confusing when Euro cabinet hinges came standard with Posidrive screws, and no one in the whole area (other than us) sold the right screwdriver bits, which might look just like Phillips to the casual eye, but most certainly do not fit the same. Then you've got the same kind of problem with Frearson screws. The variations on the theme seem endless. Then you've got one-way screws impossible to remove without the right screwdriver, which only pro burglars routinely had along with them.

I remember when they tried to introduce the metric system back in High School shop classes. "How many pennies in a dime?" Ten. "How many dimes in a dollar?" Ten. "How many millimeters in a centimeter?" Twelve? I used to kid a machinist on the Isle of Skye that if Napoleon had won the battle of Waterloo, we'd never had been in this mess to begin with.
The Brits used all kinds of wacko units of measure and interminable thread pitches, like "decimal Whitworth cubits" based on fractions of how far an ancient Druid priest could throw the head of an ox. I once sold specialized fasteners to lots of foreign car mechanics and dealerships, and saw it all. The Brit cars were the worst of all.

MattKing · Mar 9, 2023

I think everyone should switch to the Canadian solution - Robertson screwheads and screwdrivers
Like so much that is Canadian, they keep everything naturally centred:
Robertson screwheads

Vaughn · Mar 9, 2023

Here it is

Brad Deputy · Mar 9, 2023

Torx. The German auto manufacturers love 'em. You can't strip them (without REALLY trying), and...they were invented in America .. !

DREW WILEY · Mar 9, 2023

There are even variations in torx-like fittings. But what is remarkable about the German driver bits themselves, is that they last about fifty times or a hundred times longer than the generic ones. Once again, I was the only one in the whole region stocking them. Mine were made by Fisch (Austria), and marketed through Festool, of which I was the largest dealer in the West - the buyer and person in charge of that particular portion of the company, that is. The tech repair folks would spend hundreds on a full sampler case of those, along with equal quality drill bits; but in the long term it saved them an enormous amount of money alleviating the need for contstant replacements. But the far bigger payoff is that it spared them the hellish fuss of stripped screw heads. We also had a massive selection of torx structural screws, which wouldn't break either, so were even seismically rated. They're all I'd even use personally, even for large picture frame assembly. Still keep a good selection of them in my own shop.

koraks · Mar 10, 2023

BMbikerider said:
In UK we can get what we call 'A4' which is the same size as letter paper of copying paper, (approximately 8..25 x 11.25 inches)

The confusing bit is that A4 is not the same size as US Letter, but A4 is commonly used for letters alright...This is particularly annoying because Microsoft software tends to default to US Letter size, which at first glance looks similar to A4, but turns out to be distinctly dissimilar once you try to print your US Letter sized document onto A4 paper or vice versa.
A4 = 8.25" x 11.75" or 210 x 297mm
US Letter = 8.5" x 11" or 215.9 x 279.4mm

The nice thing about the A-system is that the short side dimension of a sheet is the long side dimension of the next smaller size sheet. You can traverse your way throughout the A-series range by starting with an A0 sheet and cut it in half to get A1, cut that in half to get A2, etc. So just like the 'copy series' @snusmumriken discussed earlier.

BMbikerider · Mar 10, 2023

I have not noticed any default to the US size. I like the way A5 if doubled is A4 A4 if doubled becomes A3 so on and so forth

BMbikerider · Mar 10, 2023

Brad Deputy said:
Torx. The German auto manufacturers love 'em. You can't strip them (without REALLY trying), and...they were invented in America .. !

But on one model of a BMW motorcycle there are torx headed screws that are of a size that are unique to the BMW brake callipers. BMW either designed them to stop owners fiddling with the brakes or (with my cynical hat on) to ensure that all work is directed to their workshops to ensure they make money out the owner.

BMbikerider · Mar 10, 2023

When I think about it, on my Epson flatbed scanner there are optional sizes for the scan to fit and one of these is called 'Legal' This is ONLY marginally smaller than an 35mm negative fprmat. This must surely be a throwback when legal offices had scribes who toiled away for hours a day in longhand copperplate writing to produce long winded and fathomless documents intended to impress their customers.

Ian Grant · Mar 10, 2023

koraks said:
The confusing bit is that A4 is not the same size as US Letter, but A4 is commonly used for letters alright...This is particularly annoying because Microsoft software tends to default to US Letter size, which at first glance looks similar to A4, but turns out to be distinctly dissimilar once you try to print your US Letter sized document onto A4 paper or vice versa.
A4 = 8.25" x 11.75" or 210 x 297mm
US Letter = 8.5" x 11" or 215.9 x 279.4mm

The nice thing about the A-system is that the short side dimension of a sheet is the long side dimension of the next smaller size sheet. You can traverse your way throughout the A-series range by starting with an A0 sheet and cut it in half to get A1, cut that in half to get A2, etc. So just like the 'copy series' @snusmumriken discussed earlier.

So the OP has the option of 6"x4", cutting an A4 sheet in half to A5. so 8.25"x 5.87" 210mm x 148.5mm, or A4 itself, that's there nicely spaced sixes.

Another option is to buy the paper in roll form. I have 3 or 4 rolls of Multigrade RC.

Ian

MattKing · Mar 10, 2023

BMbikerider said:
When I think about it, on my Epson flatbed scanner there are optional sizes for the scan to fit and one of these is called 'Legal' This is ONLY marginally smaller than an 35mm negative fprmat. This must surely be a throwback when legal offices had scribes who toiled away for hours a day in longhand copperplate writing to produce long winded and fathomless documents intended to impress their customers.

Legal is 8.5" x 14". What size of 35mm camera are you using?

BMbikerider · Mar 10, 2023

OH! Just a bit pedantic aren't we? You know what i mean

snusmumriken · Mar 10, 2023

We haven’t even begun to get into the invonvenient sizes of mount board …

MattKing · Mar 10, 2023

BMbikerider said:
OH! Just a bit pedantic aren't we? You know what i mean

Actually, I was confused by the reference to 35mm negatives .
I started practicing law in the 1980s when everything around here was well along in the process of moving from legal size paper and forms to letter size paper and forms. But we had to stick with legal size file folders, because there still was enough legacy usage of legal size paper and legal size forms that you needed a filing system that would allow for them.
In the days when all files were kept in paper form, they had the real advantage of reducing the substantial thickness of many files and document storage systems.

BMbikerider · Mar 11, 2023

Perhaps I could have made it clearer in that, the shape or format of 'legal' size paper is very nearly the same format/shape as a 35mm neg, apart from the negative being proportionately a little bit narrower.

On a negative scanned to 'legal', then printed on an A3 piece of paper to the 'Legal' sized print of 8.5 x14 you would loose perhaps 1/4" to 1/3" of an inch off the long side of the negative. I hope this makes it clearer. (Or half those estimated sizes on each side if you centralise the scan, which you can do easily on an Epson scanner).

Don_ih · Mar 11, 2023

MattKing said:
3.5" x 5" was the standard before 4"x6"

My parents had a 126 Instamatic and, at some point, the prints started to come on 3.5x5. I thought for a very long time that my mother just couldn't point the camera correctly. I eventually realized the negatives were square (or very close). Unfortunately, they didn't keep the negatives.

A number of photos of just my head with a lot of wall above it.

cmacd123 · Mar 11, 2023

Don Heisz said:
My parents had a 126 Instamatic and, at some point, the prints started to come on 3.5x5. I thought for a very long time that my mother just couldn't point the camera correctly. I eventually realized the negatives were square (or very close). Unfortunately, they didn't keep the negatives.

A number of photos of just my head with a lot of wall above it.

Square Negatives SHOULD have been printed as 3.5 by 3.5 inches. and later 5X5 inches.

Unfortunatly A4 size paper has yet to catch on here in Canada. we live too close to another country who started metric conversion in 1866 and has still not made much progress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Act_of_1866 A4 is "close enough" that it can be interfiled with US letter size. being a touch taller and a smidge narower than 8.5 by 11 INCH paper.

And yes, I will agree that Robertson Screws are the preferred screw head.

Someone metioned the Japanese cross point screw drivers which resemble a philips but have been Modified to remove the "feature" that causes them to "cam Out" if the trorqe becomes too much. They are a direct replacement for Philips drivers as they will safely remove and insert Philips screws. I have equipped all my work areas with Japanese drivers and quarantined all my Philips drivers. I belive that the Japanesse style is Now an ISO standard and so many european made drivers also have that improvement.

Don_ih · Mar 12, 2023

cmacd123 said:
Square Negatives SHOULD have been printed as 3.5 by 3.5 inches

They had previously been printed to that size but then the 3.5x5 size was advertised as "bigger prints" and so I think it was an option that could be checked on the order envelope. The drug store where my parents dropped the film off shipped it out to whoever-didn't-care what the final prints actually looked like.

I drive thousands of Philips screws - I don't like Robertson screws. The bit sticks in them or doesn't hold properly. I've had to throw away boxes of thousands of Robertson-drive screws because of imprecise manufacture that made it so no bit would actually fit in them. But at least they're better than posidrive, which is just garbage. Of course, you haven't truly experienced exactly how useless a screw can be until you need to drive a few hundred sloppily-made pinned torx screws.

foc · Mar 12, 2023

The 126 print sizes I remember were, 3.5x3.5 inch with a border then without, followed by 4x4 inch, and finally 5x5 inch (the last two sizes without border).

Sirius Glass · Mar 12, 2023

cmacd123 said:
Square Negatives SHOULD have been printed as 3.5 by 3.5 inches. and later 5X5 inches.

Unfortunatly A4 size paper has yet to catch on here in Canada. we live too close to another country who started metric conversion in 1866 and has still not made much progress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Act_of_1866 A4 is "close enough" that it can be interfiled with US letter size. being a touch taller and a smidge narower than 8.5 by 11 INCH paper.

And yes, I will agree that Robertson Screws are the preferred screw head.

Someone metioned the Japanese cross point screw drivers which resemble a philips but have been Modified to remove the "feature" that causes them to "cam Out" if the trorqe becomes too much. They are a direct replacement for Philips drivers as they will safely remove and insert Philips screws. I have equipped all my work areas with Japanese drivers and quarantined all my Philips drivers. I belive that the Japanesse style is Now an ISO standard and so many european made drivers also have that improvement.

My first round of square prints are 5"x5".

DREW WILEY · Mar 12, 2023

First round prints you ever made from square negatives? Yes, that would be an improvement. if certainly works for round pizzas baked in square ovens. It's good to be well-rounded.

cliveh · Mar 12, 2023

Every country in the world should use the metric system. It works on 10 units, what is not to like?

snusmumriken · Mar 12, 2023

cliveh said:
Every country in the world should use the metric system. It works on 10 units, what is not to like?

Even in Paris they still serve beer in pints!

GregY · Mar 12, 2023

cliveh said:
Every country in the world should use the metric system. It works on 10 units, what is not to like?

Even so, film, paper & matt board will not have the same aspect ration//dimensions.

Why Ilford printing paper has not the 3/2 ratio in dimensions like of a 35mm film

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Why Ilford printing paper has not the 3/2 ratio in dimensions like of a 35mm film

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