Why fuji across 100 was discontinued?

[Agulliver]

If Fuji release a new B&W film it will be because they believe they can produce something that will sell before it expires. However I do tend to agree that Neopan 400 doesn't have much of a unique selling point when we have several ISO400 B&W pan films (T-MAX, Tri-X, HP5+, Delta 400, Ilford Pan 400, Kentmere 400, Fomapan 400, Bergger Pan 400, probably more I'm not thinking of)

The niches in the market would appear to be low speed, as there's little under 100ISO (PanF+ and a couple of Adox films)...only Foma at 200....nothing at 800 or 1600 without push/pull.

If Fuji releases something new it will have to make economic sense for Fuji.....but since they are quite secretive we can only guess what that might mean.

 

[GLS]

It could also just be a new type of Instax B&W film

 

[Arcadia4]

If fujifilm do re-enter the B&W market it will almost certainly be a 100 or 400 iso film. Fuji are a volume producer and therefore are unlikely to be entering some lower volume niche. In particular its a fair bet that 400 speed B&W probably sells as much as all other speeds combined?

I suspect the main reason for axing Acros is simply that the B&W market is very competitive (largely due to Ilford and Foma having lower margins) so prices aren't high enough to guarantee an adequate profit particuarly if new R&D is going to be needed upfront where fuji corporately will expect a minimum rate of return. Acros was around £6 a roll in 135 and would be £8 roll with the current fuji price increases compared to £6 for delta 100 or £7- 7.50 for TMAX 100. The exception might be the Japanese market where theres sizeable import duty on film but that is probably too small.

 

[trendland]

Fuji wanted to get out of the B&W market. It's already heavily saturated by Ilford, Kodak, and others. It didn't make much sense for them to remain in that market and try to compete with them. It's also why Fuji is slowly backing out of the C41 color film market. Kodak has a pretty strong foothold in that one, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to continue. Fuji is instead focusing on E4 slide film and RA4 color paper. Up until recently, they were the only game in town when it came to E4. And Kodak just has the one film. And while Kodak makes RA4 paper, they only sell it in rolls. Fuji sells theirs in sheets (and some rolls). Fuji doesn't make B&W paper, because there are so many other companies that do.

The trend here is that Fuji is being proactive and trying to keep their products with low sales volume from weighing down the rest of the company. So they're focusing on the market segments that actually have better long term viability for them, thus keeping themselves and the other photographic companies, in better financial health.

So while it may seem like Fuji doesn't care about film photographers, they actually care a good deal about them. Fuji pretty much just makes photography products as a service to their old customer base out of a sense of loyalty. Fuji, as a company, makes the majority of it's income through non photographic products, like healthcare equipment, pharmaceuticals, the print industry, and what they call "highly functional materials". If they were like most companies, they'd abandon photography all together since they don't need it to survive, there's not a lot of future growth potential, and it induces a lot more risk than possibility of reward.

Jim that first you stated has much logic from my point! Fuji wasn't the real representive of bw film manufacturer as far as I remeber!
To have a product portfolio more than in comparison to Ferrania (just one film) should be a need today (to Ferrania it would be a good thing to have a 2. film - but from what money should Ferrania finance that plan at this point in 2019?)
From my point Fuji may had a target of profit in regards of bw film and paper/chems! So speculations of profitable higher sales of Accross are allowed! But if shareholders like to see a yield of 4,6% for example (or a share price speculation a.s.o.) AND bw films gave their part
from estimated target of 5% because Accross was a good seller from low production cost and good earnings - it may have changed!
So that scenario would results in : shareholders like to see 6,0% next year, Accross sellings calculated a part of 5,2% (from good sellings AND price increasement) but Fujis conclusion
could be then : NO RENTABLE BASIS FOR BW FILM!!

That's a point some of you feel fine and understand (Fuji is forced to cut bw film) to me it is nonsence because sharholder value is not good for companies in the longer run!

with regards

 

[37th Exposure]

Because I can’t live without it. Works every time.

Agfa APX, Efke, Plus-X, Kodachrome, Neopan SS, Agfa MCC, Forte, Orwo NP, CHS-II, okay this is getting depressing

 

[Henning Serger]

Despite the price it has a clean look and a low reciprocity failure than many long exposure photographers like. I had the impression it has always sold well. So why they discontinued?

It is certainly a mixture of several different reasons, mainly problems with profitability, demand and raw materials.
Getting the right raw materials, and getting raw materials at reasonable prices is a permanent challenge all film manufacturers are facing. There can be more than 120 different components in a BW film. It is a really complex product, and the complexity is even much bigger with color film.

But there is also some hope:


I've recently had a very long talk with the responsible Fujifilm film manager in my home country and he confirmed that Fujifilm is indeed seriously evaluating the possibility of a new BW film. But no final decision made yet.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

They'll just bring back a previous emulsion they discontinued.... like Presto. They would need to fill a void... perhaps 1600. I shot quite a bit of it in Japan in the 90's. I loved it.

 

[MattKing]

They'll just bring back a previous emulsion they discontinued.... like Presto. They would need to fill a void... perhaps 1600. I shot quite a bit of it in Japan in the 90's. I loved it.

I'm not sure "just" is the right word here.
While colour transparency film is a lot more complex than black and white film, the reliable information I've received about the return of Ektachrome, including how much Kodak had to do to change its procedures in order to deal with the change of availability of source components, indicates to me that bringing back a discontinued emulsion is certainly not an easy process.

 

[1kgcoffee]

I am more interested seeing them bring Astia back. Acros was a nice and unique film but not different enough to be indespensible.

 

[destroya]

I am more interested seeing them bring Astia back. Acros was a nice and unique film but not different enough to be indespensible.

+1

 

[M Carter]

Acros was a nice and unique film but not different enough to be indespensible.

For my work, the long reciprocity time of Acros was a game changer. Mainly pinhole shots and also 6x7/4x5 work in ruined industrial buildings where I felt a little like a trespasser (or potential victim), the one-less-step of dealing with reciprocity was very welcome. I've got a gig shooting a really massive indoor science facility this month (think sort of space-shuttle scope and scale), so I bought up lots of Acros from eBay. I have maybe one hour+ in there and need to get all the negs I can, and I expect long exposures. Not having to check a chart is fine with me.

Down the line, I'll have to find the lowest recip. film I can with an image structure I like.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Down the line, I'll have to find the lowest recip. film I can with an image structure I like.

Have you managed to check Delta 100 and TMAX 100 to compare?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm not sure "just" is the right word here.
While colour transparency film is a lot more complex than black and white film, the reliable information I've received about the return of Ektachrome, including how much Kodak had to do to change its procedures in order to deal with the change of availability of source components, indicates to me that bringing back a discontinued emulsion is certainly not an easy process.

They might possibly if all the stars line up and a Canadian team brings 'ol Stanley back home again one day, bring back a previous emulsion they discontinued.... like Presto. They would need to fill a void... perhaps 1600. I shot quite a bit of it in Japan in the 90's. I loved it.

 

[StepheKoontz]

I'm fine with fuji concetraiting on E6 and C-41 color films. There are plenty of people making B&W film where this isn't a crisis.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Fuji is almost completely out of the color neg film business except for a few amateur products, and their current offering of positive chrome film is an endangered species too, even more so if Kodak doesn't step back in. There are decent workarounds for ACROS, even better in certain respects. But it did have a certain combination of traits making it quite desirable, so I put a decent stash of it in my freezer.

 

[lantau]

Fuji is almost completely out of the color neg film business except for a few amateur products, and their current offering of positive chrome film is an endangered species too, even more so if Kodak doesn't step back in. There are decent workarounds for ACROS, even better in certain respects. But it did have a certain combination of traits making it quite desirable, so I put a decent stash of it in my freezer.

They have two amateur films and two pro films left. Yes, you can buy all the 160NS pro you want, here. I wish it was more, but Fuji is a large company and they'll have to run the film business in a somewhat lean and efficient manner to prevent the bean counters from closing it. It wish they still made their higher ISO films, but who is going to buy that expensive stuff in sufficient quantity?

I'm guilty myself. I bought a few rolls of Venus and Natura near the end. Frankyl, I rarely have an opportunity to put it to good use. The 800 is actually quite nice, the 1600 can be great in neon lit urban centres. Yesterday I was at a wedding and brought a roll of Kodak TMZ and at E.I. 3200 it was quite useless. I limited the digicam to 3200 as well, but that is ISO 3200, not E.I., and has the benefit of live view and other tricks to make it work. Judging from the sales numbers film is commercially most successful up to ISO 400, and the occasionally pushing and using b/w '3200s'. All that Fuji is really lacking in the portfolio is Provia 400 for a complete E6 line up.

I'm sure Kodak would have shut down film production a long time ago if they had (successfully) diversified their business early on, instead of going into bankruptcy. It's a bit of a miracle Fuji is still making film, maybe they have some emotional attachment. And then there is Instax, which is a bit of an anchor for film. It keeps the coating infrastructure alive even if they were to discontinue all other films.

 

[mshchem]

There's still the potential of making money in film if the operation is sized correctly. I wish we could still buy pack film. Don't lose sight of the Instax business. This volume may have been what did in pack film, who knows. But I'm sure the Instax volume helps.
I don't think Kodak wants out of film, but the extraordinary margins that they enjoyed in their heyday are long gone.

 

[Henning Serger]

I'm not sure "just" is the right word here.
While colour transparency film is a lot more complex than black and white film, the reliable information I've received about the return of Ektachrome, including how much Kodak had to do to change its procedures in order to deal with the change of availability of source components, indicates to me that bringing back a discontinued emulsion is certainly not an easy process.

Exactly, Matt.
Bringing back discontinued films or photo papers is a very complex and difficult challenge. On my factory visits in the talks to the engineers they have always had a focus on explaining that complexity.
It's really very hard work.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Fuji is almost completely out of the color neg film business except for a few amateur products,

No, besides C200 and Superia X-Tra 400 as amateur films they also offer Pro400H worldwide and Pro160NS in certain markets (e.g. Europe, Japan, some other Asian countries) in the professional film range. Pro 400H has increasing demand in some major markets like the North American market. It is one of the most popular CN films for professional portrait, fashion and wedding photography.

and their current offering of positive chrome film is an endangered species too, even more so if Kodak doesn't step back in.

Let's have a look at the facts:
1. Fujifilm is offering three different colour reversal films in 35mm, 120 and sheet film up to 8x10".
2. Kodak is offering one colour reversal film, currently only in 35mm.
3. Fujifilm has never stopped its colour reversal film production and delivered several color reversal films and E6 chemistry without any interruption.
4. Kodak stopped its whole color reversal film production in 2012. And after that - at least here in Germany - they also started a marketing campaign with adverts against color reversal film and tried to get the reversal film shooters into Kodak CN film. So they wanted to further damage/destroy the reversal film market.
5. Fujifilm has saved the reversal film market by continuing production of films and chemistry. Because of that the whole E6 infrastructure including labs stayed alive. And only because of that Kodak had the chance to re-introduce their current Ektachrome E100. If Fuji would have done the same as Kodak did in 2012, the E6 market would have been dead now and we wouldn't have seen a new Ektachrome.
6. We can be really happy about the new E100. But as reversal film shooters we know that Fujifilm has "saved our asses" in the last years. And no one else.
7. At last Photokina Fujifilm has published its film programme and a clear commitment to keep the standard film production going. Including its three colour reversal films. See the attachment.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[GLS]

Pro160NS

As far as I understood, 160NS is now discontinued. Note how it doesn't appear on the advert you attached.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Henning, I've made a helluva lot of prints from Fuji chrome sheet film, as well as from Kodak and even some Agfa. The best of it is gone. Provia is on unstable triacetate base. Velvia is overtly contrasty and not ideal for reproduction. The Astia family of films was the only one capable of generating high-quality dupes (even the CDU series was basically tungsten-balanced Astia), or of multi-generation hue accuracy. Now its gone. As a printmaker, there's no future there. E100G was a very versatile film on a stable estar base, though not accurate enough for dupe work. Let's hope it comes back in a range of sizes. But I've moved on, and all my new work is being done on Kodak color negative film.

 

[Henning Serger]

As far as I understood, 160NS is now discontinued. Note how it doesn't appear on the advert you attached.

Well yes, 160NS is not included in the statement. But it is available fresh in several markets. There are also some further Fuji films not listed in that statement, but available in certain markets (e.g. Velvia 50 in 4x5").
What is currently unknown is whether this published list is
- the film programme of all the films which are available globally, in all markets
or
- the complete film programme being produced for the coming years.
Maybe even Fujifilm itself doesn't know at this moment. Because if for example the demand for 160NS is significantly increasing this year, they perhaps continue production. Who knows.
I know from my talks with them at last Photokina that they've had an unexpectedly strong demand increase in Germany in 2018. Backorders for several hundred thousand rolls of film (demand surpassing supply). So that they had to increase their forecasts for 2019 significantly (double digit).
By the way, the same happened to Kodak Alaris in Germany. Fuji and Kodak in Germany together have had backorders of more than 1 million films in 2018. And there are countries in which the film revival is stronger compard to Germany (e.g. the NA market).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Drew,
I've used Ilfochrome in the past, too.
With the Provia 100F base I've never had any problems. Nor have I ever heard from other professionals using that they have had any problems with it.

As a printmaker, there's no future there.

From my experience I have to disagree, or to be as precise as possible: By using alternative (=hybrid) technology outstanding prints from colour reversal film are possible.
If I want an excellent print from one of my slides I now use the following way:
1) Scan with a real drum scanner (Heidelberg Tango or ICG 370HS - two friends of mine have scanning services with these two excellent scanners). These scanners deliver really outstanding results. E.g. even from Velvia you can get up to 10 stops of DR. The grain is not enhanced by these scanners, but very natural and extremely close to the original. Color reproduction is excellent, too.
So these scan are a perfect basis for
2) Exposing these scans on real silver-halide photo paper (RA-4) with laser printers.
The results I get this way are really outstanding. And lots of professinals are using this way for their exhibition prints.
And by this way the advantages of color reversal film (finer grain, higher resolution, better sharpness, the unique color rendition) can be transferred to prints.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[DREW WILEY]

I am quite aware that under a highly skilled technician, drum scanning then laser printing onto RA4 paper can come close to direct optical results, and that now that Cibachrome is gone, direct optical from chromes per se is tricky. I personally know how to do very high quality contact internegs from chrome sheet film that result in sharper and more accurate prints in most cases than you'll get via scan and laser, and certainly way better than inkjet. But it's a headache. That's why I now mostly print direct optical color neg film onto RA4. This afternoon I'm going to do another 8x10 Ektar onto 20X24 Fuji paper, and I assure you, no laser print can match that. In those cases where I use the polyester Fujiflex medium, the detail and look is similar to Cibachrome - potentially extreme detail you need a loupe to see unless the print is even substantially larger. So NO, I'm sorry ... while digital printing has come a very long ways indeed, it does not meet my personal expectations. In most cases, I can do it a lot better myself in the darkroom. But you're behind the times if you think chrome reverasal film still has an advantage over color neg in terms of resolution and hue accuracy. Take a look at Ektar. They do differ in color signature, and specific color neg films even significantly differ from one another in that respect. But you can directly view a processed chrome and instantly evaluate it, unlike negs. So there are still a lot of good arguments in favor of keeping E6 film alive. But from my own standpoint quality-wise, digital printing would be a step backwards. ... And as far as your claim of being able to recover ten stops of Velvia via scanning - ten stops of WHAT? That's like sticking a periscope five meters further down into a tank of oil - there might be a measurable degree of density gradation down there in all the murky blue-blackness, but it's not going to be of any real value image-wise. That's no secret.

 

[GLS]

The great advantage of a hybrid process though is the digitised files give you an enormous amount of subtle control when it comes to tweaking the images, if required; far more than traditional optical printing could ever hope to achieve.