Why does the Canon F-1 seem to get relatively little love?

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reddesert

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Yes. Not just focusing. Lens mounting is also backwards. It's not just Canon shooters who think so, all other cameras I own do this properly (Canon, Leica, Mamiya, Fuji, and Hasselblad). IIRC the only other goofy brand is Bronica.

It's not just about lenses. Generally when you're turning something clockwise, you're screwing it in (or getting closer to something).

Focusing doesn't bother me much, but changing lenses does, for some reason...

Nikon inherited the mounting and focus directions from Zeiss (Contax) when they made the Nikon rangefinder derived from / almost compatible with the Contax rangefinder. Then they kept the directions the same for the Nikon SLRs. I don't know why Zeiss made it that way.

The Nikkor lenses that mount on the early Bronica SLRs (S2, etc) have the same focus direction but mount lefty-loosey, so that doesn't explain why the later Bronica leaf-shutter SLRs mount righty-loosey. I suspect it came from a constraint from the shutter and the linkages that the body uses to cock the leaf shutter, but have no proof.

That's all the lens mount trivia I have for today.
 

Duceman

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Last night, after reading this thread, I was flipping through the channels whereupon I came across "Crocodile Dundee" (1986), and what do I see? Well, the lady is using is Canon F-1.

:D

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Duceman

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At least the FD "L" lenses are finally getting wide appreciation now as sought-after adapted glass for mirrorless digital bodies: you can't pick them up cheap anymore.

So that's why they're so expensive? Locally, some of the FD "L"-series prime lenses are priced at, or above, their EF counterparts, which has left me scratching my head as how that can be. I guess the above explains it.
 
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logan2z

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My remarks about the Nikon F2 halo effect were meant to be specifically referring to the OP question of why the Canon F-1 didn't become as popular as it should have: my point was Nikon had a lock on the market of amateurs who could afford a $450 SLR that Canon was unable to lure away in any significant numbers. The Canon sold well to pros but didn't reach critical mass with well-heeled amateurs. Of the 880,000 F2 cameras Nikon sold, at least half went to non-pros who perpetuated a mystique, and those F2s flood the used marketplace to this day. The Canon F-1 didn't have that volume of sales and never developed iconic status among amateurs: it remained a well-respected professional tool with little mass market recognition.

I agree with your points about the popularity or advantages of Olympus OM-1, Minolta SRT and Pentax Spotmatic over the Nikkormat: of course these were the bread and butter of camera stores, outselling the pro Canons and Nikons by an order of magnitude. The OM-1 was probably the most well-conceived, jewel like cameras of the '70s: I begged my father to buy me one for my 16th birthday and was shocked that he agreed to let me pay off the $240 cost bit by bit. Wonderful camera, totally lived up to its rep as the "Leica M3 of SLRs". But it didn't begin picking off Nikkormat sales in earnest until 1974-1975, by which time it was eating heavily into SRT and Spotmatic - KM - KX sales as well.

That period came a couple years after the introduction of the Canon F-1 and the peak of the Nikkormat, which is the era I was speaking of (1970-1973) when I said the F/F2 had massive name recognition and Nikkormat dominated college campuses. Canon faced immense headwinds introducing the all-new F-1 and FD system into that environment: the Nikon F was still top of the heap, the F2 was the new glamour magnet, and Nikon/EPOI savagely undercut other mfrs by offering steep discounts on Nikkormats to students (lowering the cost to below a Spotmatic or SRT). The Nikkormat may have been a clunky dog vs SRT or Spotmatic, but Nikon snared the college kids early then had them for a lifetime.

It took Olympus to break that logjam and shake up the industry (including students), but the OM-1 tornado didn't hit full force until '74. Between its failure to siphon off the wealthy amateur market from Nikon with the F-1, and shock at the success of Olympus OM, Canon regrouped and bet all its chips on the AE-1 stealth bomb for 1976. The AE-1 took the market by storm based on price and sexy automation, but the pro F-1 stubbornly remained a non-starter in the rich mans toy segment still owned by Nikon with the F2S. At least Canon had ensured Nikon would never again get a restful nights sleep in the volume mid-price segment: the once-lucrative Nikkormat was getting killed on one end by the tiny lightweight Olympus OM-1, and the other by the sexy electronic whiz-bang AE-1. The FM helped a little against the OM-1 but Nikon took way too long to introduce its automatic sister the FE (which Canon then blunted with its super computerized A-1 step-up from AE-1). Finally, we had a real streetfight between titans.
Speaking of Nikkormats, apparently that was also the choice of British photographer Raymond Moore. You can see him shooting with it at about the 5:11 mark in this video:

 

jonmon6691

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I forgot..........i have a speed-finder for my F-1 New. I just slipped it on.
I do not have a lot of experience with these, and Zero experience with speeders for Minolta, Nikon, Etc etc
But the Canon seems to be Very Nice. Not sure how often I WILL use it, but i am happy to have it.

I think a nice big eye cup for it would really make it perfect, but even still it's a pleasure to use. In fact I was out shooting macro today and was working in a lot of setups that would have been back-breakers without the speed finder.

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test_realm

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To answer the question asked in the title of this thread: when I decided to get back to film, I just couldn't make myself to look at Canon again.

In the digital/auto-focus world I was completely unimpressed with their glass (I mostly used L-lenses). Canon's EF lenses were usually a bad deal in terms of speed/bulk/price/wide-open-performace. Their f/1.2 series should have been f/1.4. Their f/1.8 lenses should have been f/2, and so on. Most lenses come with the weight & price tax for an unusable maximum aperture. I snapped out of this vicious cycle only when I discovered Fuji digital cameras.

So when switching to film, I just assumed that FD lenses are similar and didn't even look at Canon. It doesn't matter now because my AI-S Nikkors, Leica M-lenses, and Voigtlanders are all light & small and perfectly usable at their maximum apertures.
It really is in the eye of the beholder then, I honestly find all the manufacturers sharp enough. All those optics sharpen up considerably by 1.4 anyway. Nice to have options.
 

CMoore

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I think a nice big eye cup for it would really make it perfect, but even still it's a pleasure to use. In fact I was out shooting macro today and was working in a lot of setups that would have been back-breakers without the speed finder.

View attachment 287718
Good Grief.............. i forgot it swivels like that. :redface:
You could probably rig some sort of eye-cup.
Maybe Zip-Tie it on there.

But you are correct.
A nice, factory made cup would be fabulous for that.! :smile:
 

drmoss_ca

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The word in my area (UK) in the early seventies was that Canon's were big, heavy and the breech lock mount meant that lens changes were slow and clumsy. I can't say personally if any of that was true, as I was using 42mm screw thread lenses at the time, so speed wasn't a thing I knew anything about! No doubt I was also over-influenced by my elder brother who was an evangelist for the OM-1.
It's probably hard for anyone today to appreciate just how much we lusted over the gorgeous adverts in the photo mags (Practical Photography and Amateur Photography for me). Those huge lenses with the richly-coloured coatings! No doubt they wouldn't have seemed so luscious if we had known how to talk to girls...
 

CMoore

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The word in my area (UK) in the early seventies was that Canon's were big, heavy and the breech lock mount meant that lens changes were slow and clumsy. I can't say personally if any of that was true, as I was using 42mm screw thread lenses at the time, so speed wasn't a thing I knew anything about! No doubt I was also over-influenced by my elder brother who was an evangelist for the OM-1.
It's probably hard for anyone today to appreciate just how much we lusted over the gorgeous adverts in the photo mags (Practical Photography and Amateur Photography for me). Those huge lenses with the richly-coloured coatings! No doubt they wouldn't have seemed so luscious if we had known how to talk to girls...
I would say "Heavy" is relative to other cameras that fulfill a similar need. It probably is as heavy if not heavier than most 35mm SLR.

Slow lens change.?
You just turn the silver band............maybe 1/2 turn, maybe a bit less.?
 

BradS

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Canon....meh.
I confess that I had never heard of Canon prior to the big marketing blitz they did for the AE-1 at the Olympics and never took them seriously after that...until the EOS. I remember Phillip Greenspun writing effusively about the Canon EOS system. I bought an EOS Rebel Ti for the mother of my children and, when she lost interest in it, I used it as a big P&S for a while. Never was I unhappy with the results.
 
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4season

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I admit that I find it sort of strange that a basic Canon F-1 outfit and a Nikon Fx can be had for less money today than a Yashica T4 Super, but I guess that's cultural shifts for you.
 

benjiboy

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I admit that I find it sort of strange that a basic Canon F-1 outfit and a Nikon Fx can be had for less money today than a Yashica T4 Super, but I guess that's cultural shifts for you.
To me it means " some people know the price of everything, and the value of nothing".
 
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George Mann

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What about the F mount makes it more special than the FD mount? Compatibility with a wider array of lenses?

For me, it is the way that Nikkor lenses render that has kept me away from this obviously capable and well made rival.
 
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250swb

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Speaking of Nikkormats, apparently that was also the choice of British photographer Raymond Moore. You can see him shooting with it at about the 5:11 mark in this video:



In that era when I was a student doing photography at college in Sheffield, and Ray Moore was lecturing 40 miles away at a similar course in Derby, Nikkormat's weren't just popular because the college stores had them for students to use, but because they were tough as nails and a genuine backup camera to the F or F2. There simply wasn't the snobbery shown then, indeed it could be the other way around. A couple of now very well known and regular visiting lecturers to my course had battered black paint Leica M3's, and who wanted one of those when I could have a Nikkormat! And to the point, an equally esteemed visiting lecturer came with a well brassed Canon F1, it was two years old, was it well used though? No, he wanted it to look like a Nikon F and had got the sandpaper out.
 

mcrokkorx

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In that era when I was a student doing photography at college in Sheffield, and Ray Moore was lecturing 40 miles away at a similar course in Derby, Nikkormat's weren't just popular because the college stores had them for students to use, but because they were tough as nails and a genuine backup camera to the F or F2.

Nikkormats always seemed to have wild swings in popularity or status that would miss the mark of their intrinsic worth one way or the other. To some extent this hinged on the typical camera buyer of the era in question: during the earlier years of the late 1960s thru late 1970s 35mm SLR boom, huge numbers of mass market "consumer photographers" (distinct from amateur-enthusiasts) flocked to Japanese SLRs in the misplaced belief they were "required to take good pictures". These family snapshot and travel shooters were previously satisfied with box brownies, folding cameras and Polaroids: clever marketing by the camera industry combined with photography in general trending as a cool hobby stoked this belief. Such people really had no idea WTH they were buying or even why: purchase decisions were based almost solely on brand awareness or status. To be fair, there weren't really any other legit issues to consider anyway: all 35mm SLRs had essentially the same basic design, operation and handling. All had manual TTL match needle metering, aside from the pioneering higher priced Konica AutoReflex and a couple of odd-duck leaf shutter SLR systems from Kowa, Canon and Contax.

During this period Nikkormats were somewhat over-rated, viewed strictly as more affordable offshoots of the Nikon F. Association with the F made them seem "more desirable" in ways that had no direct correlation to their utility or monetary value to the average amateur or consumer photographer. Few consumers who bought an SLR ever bought additional lenses beyond the stock 50mm (and if they did it was usually an off-brand tele or tele-zoom, not the camera mfr glass). Yet somehow, Nikon marketing (with cheerleaders in the camera magazine press) very successfully planted the idea that owning a Nikkormat was "the key to the vast treasure trove of Nikkor lenses and accessories" (direct Keppler quote). This idea swayed disproportionate numbers of potential buyers to the Nikkormat, despite the fact there was virtually no chance they would ever buy another Nikon lens or accessory.

Also despite the fact there were several other cameras at similar or lower pricing that might be more suitable for average Joe or Jane than a Nikkormat. The first iterations of Nikkormat had dimmer highly-cropped focus screens, nail breaking inconvenient ISO setting, and a lens mounting/meter indexing process that gave Einstein a headache (more complicated than the later common "Nikkormat twist"). Competing brands at the same or lower pricing like Minolta SRT or Pentax Spotmatic were smoother and slicker to operate while retaining the same apparent build quality and large lens lineup. Nikkormat wasn't on quite the same footing as Minolta and Pentax until the later FTn (and esp FT2) revisions, at which point Canon's FTb offering became compelling to more sophisticated users who could appreciate its selective-area metering. And of course the budget-constrained might have been better off looking at second-tier options like Mamiya MSX/DSX, GAF/Chinon, Fuji. or even Miranda. But, Nikkormat had brand recognition nailed, attracting more buyers than it probably earned.

The second half of "the Nikkormat decade" was more contentious and competitive. Pentax added open aperture metering to the M42 stop down spec, introduced electronic shutters with AE, then K mount. Nikon countered with the Nikkormat EL, Minolta launched the XE-7, Canon the EF, and a new step-up premium-priced class of "AE SLR" arose. Back in the manual exposure trenches, Olympus OM-1 seized the imagination of the camera press and buyers alike, triggering a rush among all mfrs to reduce size and weight. Nikkormat FT2 came to be seen as clunky, old fashioned and overpriced: Nikon was slow to replace it with the FM (which was also way overpriced vs OM-1 and Pentax MX/ME), and stupid slow bringing out the FE. But Nikon still had the brand awareness edge, until Canon dropped the AE-1 and crapped in every other mfrs tea trays.

Over the ensuing decades since its discontinuation, Nikkormat has been mostly under-appreciated (and esp in the early post-digital film camera selloff, vastly undervalued) compared to its same-era competitors. Its flaws (size, weight, shutter control placement, severely cropped viewfinder coverage, two-step lens mounting procedure) became exaggerated while advantages that took the passage of time to reveal were ignored. Compared to its '70s competition, the scales have flipped in terms of dollar value/usability today. Other than their CdS meters going half or fully dead (a common plague among all '70s SLRs), nothing ever goes wrong with Nikkormats: the film advance, Copal Square shutter, and body build are bulletprooof. Tons of Nikkormat FTn and FT2 were sold, so tons are still floating around the used marketplace in fully working (mechanical) condition. From 2010 thru 2020 they were an absolute glut on the market, literally sold as rear lens caps attached to a 50mm f/2.0 or f/1.4 Nikkor.

The once-vaunted, more elegant Minolta SRTs, Canon FTb (and to a lesser extent Pentax SP and K series) haven't fared quite as well: many now need film advance or shutter repair. The Pentax, Minolta and Canon manual-focus glass has jumped dramatically in resale value as demand for "character lenses" for mirrorless digital soared. Prices on fast aperture common focal lengths are significantly lower on some of the Nikkor classic optics vs other brands (partly because theres twice to thrice as many Nikkor lenses available, partly because '70s/'80s Nikkors have lost a bit of their cache and are considered "flat and boring" nowadays vs the exotic, harder to find Takumars, Rokkors, Hexars and Canon FDs).

Factor all this together, and the common-as-dirt Nikkormat becomes a compelling value proposition today for film newcomers on a tight budget. Cheap plentiful bodies, cheap-ish plentiful lenses, and (other than potential meter defects) no worries that an expensive repair from an 85 year old specialist technician might be required. One could do better than a Nikkormat in terms of some features, but one could also do a lot worse (or spend a lot more money for essentially the same setup, i.e. Pentax K1000). If you do feel something else would be a better fit, you can always resell a Nikkormat (esp with 50mm Nikkor attached) at breakeven or very little loss.

Circling back to under-appreciated nearly-forgotten Canon SLRs, the model at the opposite end of the F-1 in Canon's mid- '70s model lineup comes to mind: the Canon TX. Almost nobody remembers it, because it was very vanilla compared to its more expensive FTb, EF and F-1 brethren and it wasn't marketed well, failing to sell in appreciable numbers. But the TX was very well regarded by the camera press that tested it and the buyers smart enough to choose it. It was the most bang-for-the-buck manual exposure SLR Canon ever offered: a simplified FTb with less complex mechanism, easier to understand centerweighted metering, and brighter punchier viewfinder housed in a rugged body shell. It was aimed directly at the Nikkormat FT2, pitching the same feature set and comparably large lens selection at 30% lower price. Unfortunately it went nowhere saleswise, despite a big PR boost from Consumer Reports and other mass-market influencers. If you're looking for a vintage starter SLR like the Pentax K1000, consider the Canon TX instead: usually a much better deal (although nothings as cheap as a Nikkormat FTn in this category).
 
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wiltw

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Not too many have it because it wasn't as popular as the F or F2 or F3. Only after the F4 was introduced did Canon started to catch up and surpass Nikon. But today since there are relatively few of them I think the people who have them would love them more than people with the Nikon's love their. They are also carrying higher price tag than Nikon's today.

It was the introduction of EF mount lenses for autofocus EOS SLRs that was the turning point for Canon, along with Canon factory support and loaner lenses for Olympics etc. with all the white long FL lenses for the photojounalists to use.
 
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wiltw

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The AE-1 took the market by storm based on price and sexy automation, but the pro F-1 stubbornly remained a non-starter in the rich mans toy segment still owned by Nikon with the F2S. At least Canon had ensured Nikon would never again get a restful nights sleep in the volume mid-price segment: the once-lucrative Nikkormat was getting killed on one end by the tiny lightweight Olympus OM-1, and the other by the sexy electronic whiz-bang AE-1. The FM helped a little against the OM-1 but Nikon took way too long to introduce its automatic sister the FE (which Canon then blunted with its super computerized A-1 step-up from AE-1). Finally, we had a real streetfight between titans.

The street fight was in the consumer-oriented cameras, and Nikon simply was not a strong player in that market. Their forte was in Professional market. And Canon made the smart move in the EOS line with the EF mount lenses, and offering Pro support with loaner lenses and on-site repair assistance at the major sporting events, like the Olympics, with 'specialty' very rapid shooting pellicle-equipped (no reflex mirror delay) bodies like the EOS-RT and EOS-1RS.
In the battle of numbers, in 1976 the Canon AE-1 fueled the amateur market adoption of SLRs with the Canon TV ads featuring tennis stars, etc. Even Olympus. who catalyzed Canon via the OM-1 in 1972, had to come out with the OM-10 to battle the AE-1 automation for the consumer market, and the AE-1 Program came out 2 years after the OM-10, in that continuing battle.
 
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logan2z

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The encyclopedic knowledge possessed by some of you guys is impressive. I've learned a ton from reading this thread, thanks.
 

Chan Tran

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It was the introduction of EF mount lenses for autofocus EOS SLRs that was the turning point for Canon, along with Canon factory support and loaner lenses for Olympics etc. with all the white long FL lenses for the photojounalists to use.
It was about the time the F4 was introduced which was an AF camera that didn't.
 

BradS

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The encyclopedic knowledge possessed by some of you guys is impressive. I've learned a ton from reading this thread, thanks.

A few of the commentators in this thread have demonstrated impressive abilities to spin an entertaining yarn but, as entertaining as it is, much of the retrospective narrative fantasy should be taken with grain of salt.
 

Larry Cloetta

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The F1 will probably be getting even less love now that one was apparently the “vintage camera” that was identified as a bomb by some crazy Karen, and apparently also identified as a possible bomb by every other member of the flight crew, which necessitated an emergency landing for some reason, and the Canon F1 owning perp to be spread eagled face down in the dirt while cops who apparently also thought it might be a bomb ruminated about what to do before pulling all his checked baggage off the plane and tossing through that, finding even more “vintage cameras” which could very well have been bombs, had they not been cameras which aren’t even particularly “vintage”.
So, no Canon F1 for me. No airline travel either for that matter.
 

wiltw

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It was about the time the F4 was introduced which was an AF camera that didn't.

The EOS line was launched in 1987, the Nikon F4 was launched in 1988. The lack of electronic linkage to lens control might have accounted for the increased success of the EOS line with its electronically controled lenses...nice to have same aperture settings whenever you change lenses, with the body's control of selected aperture.
 
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George Mann

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Nikkormat FT2 came to be seen as clunky, old fashioned and overpriced: Other than their CdS meters going half or fully dead (a common plague among all '70s SLRs), nothing ever goes wrong with Nikkormats: the film advance, Copal Square shutter, and body build are bulletprooof. Prices on fast aperture common focal lengths are significantly lower on some of the Nikkor classic optics vs other brands (partly because theres twice to thrice as many Nikkor lenses available, partly because '70s/'80s Nikkors have lost a bit of their cache and are considered "flat and boring" nowadays vs the exotic, harder to find Takumars, Rokkors, Hexars and Canon FDs).

I cut out the parts I wanted to respond to.

First, I bought my first FT2 in '75 over any other offering in its class because of its superior quality, as well as the preferred rendering of its 50mm f2 lens (copied by Leitz).

It's layout may be considered awkward by some, but at 7 years old, I thought it was neat.

The other camera system considered at the time was the Olympus OM.

Second, the leading cause of meter malfunction is not the photocells, but the resistor ring which becomes worn, or in many cases dirty and oxidized.

Third, vintage Nikkor primes consistantly produce more accurate results than their more interesting rendering competitors.

I have owned and used nearly all of the legendary primes thru the years but have always found that I favored the true-to-life rendition of the Nikkors.
 

mcrokkorx

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I have owned and used nearly all of the legendary primes thru the years but have always found that I favored the true-to-life rendition of the Nikkors.

No argument with this or your other points: the F2AS, Nikkormat FT3 and Nikkor optics have been my primary 35mm system since I was finally able to afford the switch back in 1990. The Nikkormat variations sound more solid in operation than their tinny-sounding FM/FE successors, and they don't employ perishable foam sound deadeners like the pro F2 (an intact F2 sounds great, but most suffer from decayed internal padding that leaves them with a firing sound like a cracked rusted-out bell rung by Quasimodo). All of the Nikon/Nikkormat metal body manual focus film era SLRs were top notch build quality. As were comparable models from competing mfrs: pre-1976, none of them could really be accused of cutting corners, tho some designs have survived four or five decades more intact than others. During their expected dozen-year service life, they were all pretty reliable.

The resistor ring is a bugbear for many Nikon & Nikkormat models, but Nikkormats frequently have one of their two CdS cells die from age. The worn ring resistor causes jerky response and gaps in response, a dead or dying CdS cell manifests as consistent exposure inaccuracy. More than a few pre-FT2 models are plagued by both issues. Not a dealbreaker unless the owner wants to make full use of the meter system: it can still be repaired by some of the better long-term techs who can source compatible replacement cells.

The 50mm f/2.0 Nikkor is a perfect example of how lens tastes and reputations have changed during the adapted-to-digital craze. It was indeed considered at the top of the Japanese 50mm pile during the film era, but today one sees more slams against it than praise. Even the legendary 105mm f/2.5 and 180mm f/2.8 aren't immune from this change in attitudes among a vocal subset of photographers. Remarking on this curious trend doesn't mean I agree with it: I was using it as an example of how more objective buyers can snare relative bargains by choosing classic Nikkors over other brands currently enjoying greater cult status.
 
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