Why do you think Ansel Adams is better known than William Mortensen?

[DREW WILEY]

I'm just across the room from a paleolithic block of red oxide with finger-dimple dents one one side, hardened marks of fiber brushes on the other side. Moving ahead about 14,000 yrs, there's also a Sioux ceremonial knife shaped of red steatite and gorgeously engraved with prairie lilies - it was actually worn to battle and lost on the battlefield, but useless as an actual weapon. What does that say?

Eddie - My field was the early peopling of North America and related Pleistocene periglacial geomorphology. Cave painting did not really exist in that fashion here, but there are certain commonalities of rock art I've studied. In each case there seems to be some attempt to secretly intervene with the unseen world in order to predict or sustain sucessful hunts, fish migrations, and later crop harvests. The most remarkable discovery of late involved paintings even earlier than Lascaux. Over the years, I've often noticed how the profiles of certain animals tended to overlap, without understanding it. Then not too long ago, it dawned on a specialist in that area that all our past studies of these figures have been based on artificial modern lighting, whereas when they were viewed in ancient times, it would have been by torchlight. So he similated that by turning off all the other lights and quickly walking past serial figures of lion and rhinos, and notice that just like in a schoolroom flip card cartoon, the creatures seemed to predictably move - the lion charged, and the rhino not only charged, but upswept his horn doing so.
Pretty sophisticated. They were dramatizing things in a sacred enclosure in order to sustain them predictably in the real world; likewise with speared horses, red deer, etc.

Some of our more stunning artifacts here were in fact what remains of gorgeously fabricated kill weapons or atlatl points, deliberately made of rare materials which must have been hard to acquire from remote trade, and served in the same manner as ritualized art, probably made by specialist shamans, and deliberately left behind at mammoth and mastodon kills as a kind of ritual exchange for the animal's life. Not everyday food; it would have been dangerous work, so was a big deal, and probably a ritualized hunting cult for a relatively brief era, over the entire western hemisphere, top of Alaska tall the way to Tierra del Fuego.

 

[removed account4]

DREW maybe you should take a class in museum / critical studies with SG. it might shed light on how the idea of museum was devised and how Western European men treated aboriginal cultures. the comments I have stated are well known in the field of anthropology and museum studies, they are nothing new.

 

[eddie]

What does that say?

It says you haven't answered my question. Does the purpose of the creator have any bearing on whether it can be defined as art?

 

[removed account4]

What does that say

I say it was a hand made decorated weapon that has been taken out of its original context as a tool of defense and killing and you have decided it is art. It doesn’t say much more than that.. like a mirror found in King Tut’s Tomb. Sure it’s art it’s in a museum but it’s just a an ornate gold mirror and was not made to be a shelf queen.

 

[DREW WILEY]

jnantz - I grew up with native Americans (Indians), and knew a few who themselves grew up before any white contact. Childhood pals of mine now run schools teaching aboriginal dialects, and have museums of their own. You're arguing with the wrong guy. Do not expect me to bother answering any more comments of your on this particular theme. You seem to have a certain cultural grudge based on your own poorly-informed stereotypes, and frankly, are poorly educated on the whole subject. You don't even know what red steatite is - soft soapstone, easily carved into ornamental form like a knife, but utterly useless as a knife. Perhaps worn as a symbol of rank.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Drew- Do you believe the cave paintings at Lascaux were done to decorate the caves or, more likely, as a celebration of a successful hunt, a rite to assure a successful hunt, or some other quasi-religious purpose?

If you were to tell that to a troglodyte, you would have gotten your head split open with a club. Troglodytes did not take kindly to such trash talk. jnantz is old enough to know that.

Plus in the archeology class I took, the professor would have either flunked you or failed you or both.

 

[eddie]

I think the items like cave paintings, fertility statues, and soapstone knives were made as ceremonial items by their creators. It's us, as modern man, that has elevated them to "art" status.

 

[removed account4]

jnantz - I grew up with native Americans (Indians), and knew a few who themselves grew up before any white contact. Childhood pals of mine now run schools teaching aboriginal dialects, and have museums of their own. You're arguing with the wrong guy.

Of course you do DREW. You have a long history of making comments and knowing all sorts of important people... but “art” did not exist before people started to label things as "art". People made things for 50,000 years not saying they didn’t .. but art has no use, no purpose other than to be art.. knives tools baskets clothes dwellings &c. Now they are called art but when they were made they weren’t.. a basket was a basket... a whale hunting helmet is a whale hunting helmet... but out of context these things are art because some old white guy in 1830 said so.

regarding the knife signifying rank. .. are you also suggesting that lapel ribbons on a us army uniform are art ? they signify, rank and honor as well. or is it just the signifier of a non-white, non-modern-society person is art? what about blunderbuss guns, ornately carved and adorned found in a wall of an old. boat from the 1700s. is that art? or Japanese armor form WWI they are in a museum.

 

[eddie]

If you were to tell that to a troglodyte, you would have gotten your head split open with a club. Troglodytes did not take kindly to such trash talk. jnantz is old enough to know that.

Are you capable of a rational, respectful discussion?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Are you capable of a rational, respectful discussion?

I did not call jnantz a troglodyte.

 

[BrianShaw]

I think the items like cave paintings, fertility statues, and soapstone knives were made as ceremonial items by their creators. It's us, as modern man, that has elevated them to "art" status.

... or, at least, to ARTifact status.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I'm out of this thread. It's turning nasty and prejudicial.

 

[eddie]

I did not call jnantz a troglodyte.

You've called him a troll more than once in this thread. His long time participation on this site says otherwise.

 

[removed account4]

Plus in the archeology class I took, the professor would have either flunked you or failed you or both.

I doubt your teacher would have failed me LOL
An Electrical Engineer who took an archaeologically class ? Sounds like fun!
I should put you in touch with some of the archaeologists I have studied with and worked with (Historical, Landscape, Industrial, Commercial and Underwater) since about 1990... They might enlighten you about the differences between artifact and art.

Are you capable of a rational, respectful discussion?

Obviously he's not, nothing very new. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

still has not answered a basic question I asked him 1-2 pages ago .. what is the "painterly photography" he thinks is so terrible. instead he insults, its too bad because its related to the original post. This whole cave painting swerve left has been just a sad-distraction so he and DREW can go on about how "modern art" is terrible, and educational institutions ruined art and wasn't everything so much better when people just accepted The Patriarchy as the status quo.

 

[eddie]

... or, at least, to ARTifact status.

I believe you're onto something... I think modern humans look to connect to our primeval relatives in ways which make sense to our more "evolved" selves.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Drew- Do you believe the cave paintings at Lascaux were done to decorate the caves or, more likely, as a celebration of a successful hunt, a rite to assure a successful hunt, or some other quasi-religious purpose?

Maybe it was only graffiti? Someone looking for immortality.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Sort of like posting your pictures in Flickr.

 

[Wayne]

Its kind of hard to know the intentions of people long dead.

 

[MattKing]

Its kind of hard to know the intentions of people long dead.

It is hard enough to know the intentions of the driver facing you in the intersection who doesn't have their turn signal on!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Hi Alan - certainly not graffiti, nor anything casual. Whoever first came up with that W European cave painting style had to be the greatest visual genius in human history. That style lasted at least 25,0000 year (roughly 40,000 to 15,000 yrs ago), and was remarkably sophisticated. Of course, people will continue to speculate and debate concerning its nuances.

If you want seemingly random scratch marks instead, there's a set of them I've been intermittently studying for many years out in the central Nevada desert. This past time I spotted a particularly nice lighting angle in an esthetic sense to photograph part of them. To bring out the detail better against the reddish rock, I used a deep green contrast filter, then further enhanced the contrast printing on VC paper. When studying the print, all kinds of fine detail was evident in the enlargement that I hadn't noticed before, and I finally figured out what it all meant. It was basically a regional map showing where to place fish traps when they began seasonly migrating upstream from the desert lake marshes. Opposite that particular rock is another set with an already recognized solar or seasonal calendar using predictable sun angle symbols as well as shaman figures. It all finally made sense : when and where to go fishing in limited desert streams.

 

[Wayne]

It is hard enough to know the intentions of the driver facing you in the intersection who doesn't have their turn signal on!

Probably a distracted artist...don't take any chances!

 

[Vaughn]

Nah, it’s all graffiti compared with Lik. THAT is art.

+1....Where's the "Lik" button?!!!

 

[removed account4]

Hi Alan - certainly not graffiti, nor anything casual. Whoever first came up with that W European cave painting style had to be the greatest visual genius in human history. That style lasted at least 25,0000 year (roughly 40,000 to 15,000 yrs ago), and was remarkably sophisticated. Of course, people will continue to speculate and debate concerning its nuances.

If you want seemingly random scratch marks instead, there's a set of them I've been intermittently studying for many years out in the central Nevada desert. This past time I spotted a particularly nice lighting angle in an esthetic sense to photograph part of them. To bring out the detail better against the reddish rock, I used a deep green contrast filter, then further enhanced the contrast printing on VC paper. When studying the print, all kinds of fine detail was evident in the enlargement that I hadn't noticed before, and I finally figured out what it all meant. It was basically a regional map showing where to place fish traps when they began seasonly migrating upstream from the desert lake marshes. Opposite that particular rock is another set with an already recognized solar or seasonal calendar using predictable sun angle symbols as well as shaman figures. It all finally made sense : when and where to go fishing in limited desert streams.

I see where you are coming from and ... I guess ? but IDK to me, it doesn't matter how good the person's technique is. Sure one is able to appreciate it, it is wonderful, nothing like it, that just means whoever ( or whatever since ancient astronaut theorists suggest a lot of early things that are awe inspiring were all done by aliens or at least with alien intervention ) made it knew what they were doing either by intuition or through practice or being taught. From what Art History books and museum folks and Anthropologists suggest --- statuettes and cave paintings &c were done for ceremony, not just to exist .. like tools, weapons, cutlery, dishes, glasses, textiles &c -- they are all tools, beautiful, well-made, tools that should be looked at in awe and fill the viewer or person who found them and look / experience them with inspired thought, but and they all had an intended use .. they were not made for the purpose of just to be like Meret Oppenheim's cup/saucer/spoon, or Man Ray's iron / they weren't made just to exist.
I mean the guy who used to do the yardwork at the house across from mine used to have a way with his lawnmower and garden sheers, he made these zig zag marks on the lawn, did edging and the shrubs were like squared off perfectly but was he Edward Scissorhands ? Nope. He was cutting the lawn, Edward on the other hand, was doing it to make art, there was no other purpose. .. and in case you bring up culinary delights ...yes, used to get my 6inch veggie delight down the road at the local subway, I know the person who made it was a "sandwich artist" but that's just a trademarked name for the subway version of a corporate serf. and my kids know how to make a grilled cheese sandwich and a egg in the hole ( fried egg dropped in a slice of bread with a hole cut in it ) that is like no other. technique of coating the breads, cooking them on the stove at the perfect temperature to make everything absolutely flawless, they should have their own cooking show. is it art? ... not sure.

Maybe it was only graffiti? Someone looking for immortality.

maybe the Keith Haring or Banksy of his / her time?

hopefully people reading this realize im not an expert, nor do I play one on TV, a YouTube channel, ticktockstation, Vlog, podcast, or new-media platform &c and all I have stated in this thread about these topics are just opinion - influenced or wrongly influenced by art history/anthropology/museum studies/critical theory texts, and the experts in these fields as well as experts on the history channel like Giorgio Tsoukalos. I don't know if a race of space aliens really made the statues on easter island, or the cave paintings at Lascaux, I have never met Edward Scissorhands, but I have chatted with my "sandwich artist" server at subway and looked at the food my kids have made. The subway sandwich was "meh". I didn't eat the food the kids made, but it looked good.

 

[Arthurwg]

Drew- Do you believe the cave paintings at Lascaux were done to decorate the caves or, more likely, as a celebration of a successful hunt, a rite to assure a successful hunt, or some other quasi-religious purpose?

I think the whole issue of pictures, then and now, is a subject that needs much further investigation. Pictures seem to address a very deep and profound psychological need that goes much deeper than decoration, celebration or any religious purpose. The only analogy I can think of are the shadows on the wall of Plato's Cave.

 

[Arthurwg]

[QUOTE="jnantz, post: 2378246,

it might interest you to have a look at sally price, and others that have written extensively on the subject.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that, Had not come across Sally Price. Extremely interesting.