Why did you move from film to digital?

$12.66

A
$12.66

  • 5
  • 3
  • 105
A street portrait

A
A street portrait

  • 1
  • 0
  • 136
A street portrait

A
A street portrait

  • 2
  • 2
  • 131
img746.jpg

img746.jpg

  • 6
  • 0
  • 107
No Hall

No Hall

  • 1
  • 8
  • 134

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
198,799
Messages
2,781,049
Members
99,708
Latest member
sdharris
Recent bookmarks
0

jtk

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,943
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Format
35mm
So you have seen all the color prints darkroom workers have ever made? No. There is no reason home darkroom worker can't make as good a print as a lab. In fact, many make their own for better control to produce better prints than they would get from a lab. That is why I chose to make my own. Inkjet may give fast prints but is no better quality and Ink is quite expensive.

read carefully/honestly: I didn't say anything about "all darkroom workers." I have however seen the work of hundreds of them as well as the output from very good labs that served professionals (before almost all went digital a decade ago).

Near perfect color match-to-slide was once possible with Kodak's now-discontinued interneg film, but of course you had to do an exquisite job of C41 processing (as half of the pro-labs once did).

Pigment blacks from inkjet pigment are deeper than anything possible optically. Black backgrounds from pigment are very expensive, which is the only real negative. Highlight detail with inkjet is readily better than with optical/chemical printing.

No darkroom worker has nearly as much "control" as the same photographer could achieve with PS, if he/she put his/her mind to it. And my PS costs $10/mo (automatically updated).
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
The discussion was not about using dye transfer per se, which can be very high quality, but using it to produce high volume school pictures which would have been totally impractical due to the complexity and expense of it, and would never have been chosen by a photographer for that purpose.
I could not agree more. complex process, time consuming and not cost effective unless it was a giant "sheet" of 20-30 prints all ganged on one page and just cut up at the end..but even that sounds impractical..
 

RPC

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
1,628
Format
Multi Format
Pigment blacks from inkjet pigment are deeper than anything possible optically. Black backgrounds from pigment are very expensive, which is the only real negative. Highlight detail with inkjet is readily better than with optical/chemical printing.

No darkroom worker has nearly as much "control" as the same photographer could achieve with PS, if he/she put his/her mind to it. And my PS costs $10/mo (automatically updated).

At the lab I worked at the blacks appeared no more darker with inkjet than with RA-4. The paper surface has a larger effect IMO. Nor any difference in highlights.

I thought you were comparing optical prints from both lab and darkroom worker. Of course one can manipulate the crap out of an image when using digital with PS, if you need to. I have never needed to or want to. My darkroom prints are made from negatives shot well enough to begin with that I generally only need to crop, but there are ways to control almost anything with optical. I want prints that are manipulated as little as possible, especially using a computer. YMMV
 
Last edited:

timmct

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
61
Format
Medium Format
2006 seems about right...if one is referencing when the BIG DOOR shut on wet process, silver/gelatin photography.

Let me tell you what I mean; from my own perspective.

It must have been in 1998 or 1999 (while I was still working at Sprint Systems of Photography) when the principals asked me to go down to the big Photo Expo in NYC; at the Jacob Javitz Center. Sprint, in those days, was always a kind of Mom and Pop shop but we thought we were productive at a very high level and we believed we supplied good products in a system that was convenient to all but especially to teachers in a classroom setting. We had a really good rapport with the schools we did business with.

I travelled to the show with another person who worked at Sprint. When we got settled in to the show we really noticed that some of our biggest customers were rather busy and had little time for us. This seemed strange but it was obvious that our customers were really being honest...it was nothing personal. We got word that most of our customers were in lectures or marketing promotions related to digital photography.

I have to admit that this fact caught me a bit off guard. I knew about digital photography (hadn't really touched anything digital at that point) but considered it too clumsy and expensive at that point.

I can tell you, when I got back from that trip I began to read up on what digital cameras were capable of doing and the process that generated prints within that medium. The inkjet printers and the inks that were available at that time seemed to be less than ideal and the cameras were still expensive for what they seemed to be able to do...1999...give me that Hasselblad and some fine grained film...process it in a phenidone rich, lower Ph developer and I felt confident that wet process still had an advantage...back then.

I did write up a report that lay out the stark reality for Sprint. Whereas the usual curriculum for a student studying photography would have been to be 85 .per cent wet process, silver halide and 15 .per cent digital as finishing courses as they went out the door...the new order would soon be the inverse of that scheme...wet photo process becoming the final kiss in case the young, aspiring, photographer might wish to know how they did it in the good old days. Digital was coming on like a freight train.

I began work on a product that I would have liked to call "Scantastic"; basically a developer for providing high quality negatives for scanning. I also proposed that Sprint begin to consider going in to the ink business for digital prints. I went up to the Jon Cone Studio in Topsham VT to try to get a handle on these ideas.

At that time I had the ear of a friend who was respected in the world of photography and it seemed natural for me to solicit his advice on these matters. He had done all manner of printing, from photogravure, lithographs, platinum...you name it. He had also done printing for Walker Evans and Lee Friedlander and others of that ilk. At the time he was the dean of the Art School at Yale.

When I asked him about my aims he just smiled. He was perennially busy and disliked wasting time. He just told me that I was about trying to piss up a rope and that, already, the CCD's were getting better (and cheaper) and the dynamic range of the digital captures so far exceeded anything film was capable of that the writing was already writ large on the proverbial wall.

I still think that if I was embarking on a serious project that relied on high quality photographs, I would load up the right choice of camera and film and print wet process. Digital is really convenient, easy, and often never intended for prints...just see it on your screen and move on.

Bye the way...I have never bought a digital camera. I inherited a second generation Kodak 3900 when my brother died in 2007 and I used the hell out of it. I can't tell you how many people loved my images to the point where they would tell me that I would be a much better photographer if I had a BETTER camera. I always figure any camera in my hands is way more capable of capturing an image than I am capable of composition/exposure decisions.

Just after that camera died a cousin of mine gave me a great Sony Alpha model that I'm still using.

There's something insidious and misleading about computers and digital media...read the licensing agreements...ask yourself if your computer died (or if YOU died and nobody had you access password) where would your images exist??

So, I do think that around 2006 the combination of capable computers and digital cameras was overwhelming wet process to the point where almost everyone was switching over.

My 2 cents.
 

RPC

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
1,628
Format
Multi Format
Very few darkroom photographers have ever made a color negative print that rivaled what a good professional lab could have made...but many do excellent work today with inkjet pigment printers that cost far less than well set-up darkrooms (perhaps $1000...eg Canon Pro 10).

If one is already set up to do darkroom work, then one has to spend a lot more money to switch to digital and/or scanning and inkjet, with little gain, IMO.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,365
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
If one is already set up to do darkroom work, then one has to spend a lot more money to switch to digital and/or scanning and inkjet, with little gain, IMO.

Exactly my situation and option.
 

jtk

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,943
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Format
35mm
In the 50s/60s many portrait photographers used Nord enlargers and the limited electronics of the day because they were in the habit of additive color and ring-around printing techniques...same as what they did with dye transfer and (if they were working for publication) carbro.

Nords were OK for portrait photographers who were used to the multiple steps of the dye transfer (somewhat inferior to carbro) and Kodak was still mass-marketing dye transfer to pros (I doubt they ever promoted it to amateurs or artists).

I don't know what kind of color transparency they used, but I'd guess it was Ansco...which was terrible compared to Ektachrome E1/E2 when it came along, but far less critical to process.

Into the 50s some were still using tricolor cameras for carbro assignments that were exceptionally color critical: https://blog.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk/a-short-history-of-colour-photography/

carbro may have been easier than dye transfer thanks to tricolor cameras which eliminated a middle step before color separation from final print (and thereby arguably higher resolution thanks to elimination of a redundant optical step).

I actually handled one of these in the 70s ... amazing object. A client/old pro told me what it was. A small format, modern-looking version, that might have been used for kiddie portraits) was made by Curtis:

http://www.vintagephoto.tv/bermpohl_img.shtml


.
 

faberryman

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
6,048
Location
Wherever
Format
Multi Format
If one is already set up to do darkroom work, then one has to spend a lot more money to switch to digital and/or scanning and inkjet, with little gain, IMO.
One has to spend the same amount of money to switch to digital, whether they have a darkroom or not.
 

jtk

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,943
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Format
35mm
If one is already set up to do darkroom work, then one has to spend a lot more money to switch to digital and/or scanning and inkjet, with little gain, IMO.

I think the gain has mostly to do with vastly more control. Many are happy with what they've always been doing...congratulations to them.

However the OT had to do with massive change in the photographer's life...perhaps a good time to start fresh.

Relative cheapness isn't central to the motivations of everybody. Many have aspirations to imagery that's impossible with film.
 
Last edited:

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,365
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
If one is already set up to do darkroom work, then one has to spend a lot more money to switch to digital and/or scanning and inkjet, with little gain, IMO.

Exactly my situation and option.

One has to spend the same amount of money to switch to digital, whether they have a darkroom or not.

The point is that it is a considerable amount of money and there is still not a full frame 6x6 digital back or 4"x5"...
 

jtk

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,943
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Format
35mm
The point is that it is a considerable amount of money and there is still not a full frame 6x6 digital back or 4"x5"...

kinda weak argument. Nobody needs 6X6 digital given the current mf Pentax and other digitals, that far outperform 6X6 film. Don't know if those mf digitals mount well on the existing digital view cameras (used often with Canon dslrs).
 

RPC

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
1,628
Format
Multi Format
One has to spend the same amount of money to switch to digital, whether they have a darkroom or not.

If you already shoot film and have a darkroom then there is no need to switch, and would be silly IMO.

I shoot 120 and 4x5 and I wouldn't give up the tonality and detail I get compared to digital if digital was free.
 

donkee

Member
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
219
Location
Mid Michigan
Format
Multi Format
I still don't get people that can handle sitting on a computer so much. You have one in your pocket all day, take photos with another just to go home and sit on a computer working on them. Give me a break from the computer (since I am on one for work from 8 - 36 hours or more at a time). The first time I developed film I was hooked and watching my first print materialize in that tray closed the deal........
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,365
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
The point is that it is a considerable amount of money and there is still not a full frame 6x6 digital back or 4"x5"...
kinda weak argument. Nobody needs 6X6 digital given the current mf Pentax and other digitals, that far outperform 6X6 film. Don't know if those mf digitals mount well on the existing digital view cameras (used often with Canon dslrs).

No, actually it is a great reason and good enough for me. Especially since I have done digital photography since 1977 and my four movies have been seen more times than any Hollywood producer.

If you already shoot film and have a darkroom then there is no need to switch, and would be silly IMO.

I shoot 120 and 4x5 and I wouldn't give up the tonality and detail I get compared to digital if digital was free.

Absolutely. Besides I do not have to do digital just because any Tom, Dick and Harry can. I have never been much of a crowd follower; more a leader [Example: see the reference to 1977.]
 

jtk

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,943
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Format
35mm
No, actually it is a great reason and good enough for me. Especially since I have done digital photography since 1977 and my four movies have been seen more times than any Hollywood producer.



Absolutely. Besides I do not have to do digital just because any Tom, Dick and Harry can. I have never been much of a crowd follower; more a leader [Example: see the reference to 1977.]
...it'd be great if on Photrio you worked as hard to "lead" as you do to criticizing people who are carving their own pathways.
 

RalphLambrecht

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
14,649
Location
K,Germany
Format
Medium Format
Very few darkroom photographers have ever made a color negative print that rivaled what a good professional lab could have made...but many do excellent work today with inkjet pigment printers that cost far less than well set-up darkrooms (perhaps $1000...eg Canon Pro 10).
that's my experience too.
 

Pieter12

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
7,595
Location
Magrathean's computer
Format
Super8
The point is that it is a considerable amount of money and there is still not a full frame 6x6 digital back or 4"x5"...
I can only print up to 16x20 in my B&W darkroom. Larger silver prints made by an independent lab can be pretty expensive. I have had 20x20 inkjet prints made from a full-frame digital camera file (obviously cropped) for a lot less, and they look fantastic--certainly better than 35mm and damn close to medium-format film, depending on the emulsion. As far as material cost goes, good inkjet paper is more expensive (1-1/2 to 2x) than the VC fiber-base paper I use, and the inks are pricey, too. Plus, printers need maintenance and can have a limited lifespan.
 

cb1

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
111
Location
D/FW, TX
Format
Multi Format
I've was into film from 1979 to 2001, my beloved AE1P had been to the shop three times for the shutter squeal. Then it broke. I pawned everything off. thinking it was time to go digital. I've been 100% digital from 2002 to 2016, and when I saw a Ted Forbes video on home B&W development with New55 Monobath. I said wow! I can do that. So my dad gave me his SRT101 and I found another near mint AE1P on ebay,

I just love the whole process of film. I may not take great pics on the artist level, and some shots are blurry, but I'm having fun, And my collection grew to 17 film cameras and 1 DSLR. My most recent addition is a EOS630 which takes my small collection of EF lenses.

Film - Digital - Film & Digital, lots of fun!!!
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,365
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
...it'd be great if on Photrio you worked as hard to "lead" as you do to criticizing people who are carving their own pathways.

Oh, did I pop your balloon? Rain on your parade of groundless pontificates? So sorry Charlie. My bad.
 

jtk

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,943
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Format
35mm
I've was into film from 1979 to 2001, my beloved AE1P had been to the shop three times for the shutter squeal. Then it broke. I pawned everything off. thinking it was time to go digital. I've been 100% digital from 2002 to 2016, and when I saw a Ted Forbes video on home B&W development with New55 Monobath. I said wow! I can do that. So my dad gave me his SRT101 and I found another near mint AE1P on ebay,

I just love the whole process of film. I may not take great pics on the artist level, and some shots are blurry, but I'm having fun, And my collection grew to 17 film cameras and 1 DSLR. My most recent addition is a EOS630 which takes my small collection of EF lenses.

Film - Digital - Film & Digital, lots of fun!!!

I could not agree more. complex process, time consuming and not cost effective unless it was a giant "sheet" of 20-30 prints all ganged on one page and just cut up at the end..but even that sounds impractical..

You've come close to accepting what I posted earlier.

I don't know what size used paper was used but I'd guess 16x20 because that's the largest size of Kodak dye paper I've seen on stock house shelf.

The excellent British (?) film you posted showed one version of relatively high production dye lab that only one or two worker could easily handle that sort of work..not a very expensive setup. Labor was comfortably cheaper back then, too.

Pin registration isn't brain surgery...any b&w amateur could do it if they simply followed Kodak instructions.

I personally pin registered 35mm Ektachromes with 35mm Kodalith for title captioning and special images for slide shows... you could do it yourself if you had a Canon F1 or modified Nikon F.

Would be interesting if somebody knows what happened to the co-op Mexican dye transfer lab that Philip Hyde wanted to set up.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,365
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
You've come close to accepting what I posted earlier.

I don't know what size used paper was used but I'd guess 16x20 because that's the largest size of Kodak dye paper I've seen on stock house shelf.

The excellent British (?) film you posted showed one version of relatively high production dye lab that only one or two worker could easily handle that sort of work..not a very expensive setup. Labor was comfortably cheaper back then, too.

Pin registration isn't brain surgery...any b&w amateur could do it if they simply followed Kodak instructions.

I personally pin registered 35mm Ektachromes with 35mm Kodalith for title captioning and special images for slide shows... you could do it yourself if you had a Canon F1 or modified Nikon F.

Would be interesting if somebody knows what happened to the co-op Mexican dye transfer lab that Philip Hyde wanted to set up.

yes i know ... but i disagree that it is a simple process that anyone can do.
no, it is it is anything but a simple, quick process.
sure i agree lots on a page that's kind of a common sense .. its not like today where someone can cut and paste 20 things on a page, flatten the image, save it as a 16x20 canvas, invert it, and make separation negatives in like 45 seconds ...

Very apt considering that astrology is not a science, rather a pseudo science pipe dream.

not so sure about that.
https://www.auracolors.com/aura-colors/your-aura-colors/
 
Last edited:
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom