Why did Nikon F2 have horizontal shutter?

BradS · Nov 26, 2020

George Mann said:
I would love to have both the DE-1 and DP-3. Too bad they sell for such ungodly amounts.

Ironically, the DE-1 was the cheap version.

The DP-3 has always been expensive. My main user is a black F2 with a DP-3. I'm not super thrilled with the DP-3 but it has proven itself to be very reliable and extremely accurate and it is easier to use in low light - which I greatly appreciate. Really, the only thing I do not like about the DP-3 (and the DP-2 and DP-12) is the little hat thingy sticking out the rewind side. I think this connects to the DS-1 auto aperture controller device. I'd much prefer it was not there. The DP-1 in the photo above was also overhauled by Sover and so it is pretty clean and accurate now too.

Chan Tran · Nov 26, 2020

BradS said:
Ironically, the DE-1 was the cheap version.

The DP-3 has always been expensive. My main user is a black F2 with a DP-3. I'm not super thrilled with the DP-3 but it has proven itself to be very reliable and extremely accurate and it is easier to use in low light - which I greatly appreciate. Really, the only thing I do not like about the DP-3 (and the DP-2 and DP-12) is the little hat thingy sticking out the rewind side. I think this connects to the DS-1 auto aperture controller device. I'd much prefer it was not there. The DP-1 in the photo above was also overhauled by Sover and so it is pretty clean and accurate now too.

My first camera was the Nikon F2AS bought back in 1977. I guess back then nobody wanted the DE-1 so the dealer sold his demo to me for $40. So I had it both. My F2AS was stolen from me in 1984 so I gave away the DE-1 (if I kept it I can sell now for good money because it's like new. I bought it but always used the DP-12).es
I never had any problem with the DOF control or the high shutter speed dial. I guess because I was young (in my early 20's) and it was my first cameras so I didn't have anything to compare it with. Wanted to buy a good F2AS but a good used one would cost about the same as I paid for it new back then which was $550 (including the extra $25 for the black version).

Bill Burk · Nov 26, 2020

Camera theft was awe full in 1984. But I needed a replacement for my M42 Pentax gear so I went for a new OM-4.

I also enjoyed the Pasadena camera swap and that’s about when I got this Contax. It always was a little flakey but now it’s doing pretty well. One misfire today, but out of 18 shots that’s really good

RLangham · Nov 26, 2020

BradS said:
Ironically, the DE-1 was the cheap version.

The DP-3 has always been expensive. My main user is a black F2 with a DP-3. I'm not super thrilled with the DP-3 but it has proven itself to be very reliable and extremely accurate and it is easier to use in low light - which I greatly appreciate. Really, the only thing I do not like about the DP-3 (and the DP-2 and DP-12) is the little hat thingy sticking out the rewind side. I think this connects to the DS-1 auto aperture controller device. I'd much prefer it was not there. The DP-1 in the photo above was also overhauled by Sover and so it is pretty clean and accurate now too.

They had a DS 1 with my F2SB and would not sell it as a unit. No matter, I don't think you can still change the batteries, and anyways it's supposed to be a pretty awful system.

I like the DP-3 in practically every regard, though. What're the viewfinder exposure displays like on the DP-1, again? Isn't aperture a Judas window rather than a rotating transparency as on the DP-3? At any rate the DP-3 seems like about as good as it gets in manual-exposure SLR displays: fast three part exposure indicator that discriminates down to 1/5th stop, backlighting for the exposure info if needed, flash-ready light, not that it's any use, since most of the Nikon shoe flashes are probably long burnt-out...

I know some people really like a physical needle and honestly I do too, which is why I used to use an AE-1 when I also had an AE-1 Program, but with the way the three-light indicator is set up on the DP-3 I don't miss it.

flavio81 · Nov 26, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Nothing is as unpleasant as that on the Nikon F . . .

On the Nikon F it's easy to use as long as you have a crystal ball that allows you to look ahead into the future. Before any shot, just ask the crystal ball: "Will I need to lock the mirror up in the next picture?"

If the crystal ball says "yes"; then move the MLU dial, then take the current picture. The next picture will have the mirror locked up.

BradS · Nov 26, 2020

RLangham said:
They had a DS 1 with my F2SB and would not sell it as a unit. No matter, I don't think you can still change the batteries, and anyways it's supposed to be a pretty awful system.

I like the DP-3 in practically every regard, though. What're the viewfinder exposure displays like on the DP-1, again? Isn't aperture a Judas window rather than a rotating transparency as on the DP-3? At any rate the DP-3 seems like about as good as it gets in manual-exposure SLR displays: fast three part exposure indicator that discriminates down to 1/5th stop, backlighting for the exposure info if needed, flash-ready light, not that it's any use, since most of the Nikon shoe flashes are probably long burnt-out...

I know some people really like a physical needle and honestly I do too, which is why I used to use an AE-1 when I also had an AE-1 Program, but with the way the three-light indicator is set up on the DP-3 I don't miss it.

Judas window??? I don't know what that is.

The DP-1 and DP-11 have center-the-needle meter display - similar to the Pentax Spotmatics. I slightly prefer the needle but I very, very strongly prefer SBC light metering over CdS cells.
Of the five(?) metered F2 finders, the DP-3 is the best compromise for me. It is the only one that has SBC light sensitive elements and works with both AI and pre-AI lenses.

RLangham · Nov 26, 2020

LLP

BradS said:
Judas window??? I don't know what that is.

The DP-1 and DP-11 have center-the-needle meter display - similar to the Pentax Spotmatics. I slightly prefer the needle but I very, very strongly prefer SBC light metering over CdS cells.
Of the five(?) metered F2 finders, the DP-3 is the best compromise for me. It is the only one that has SBC light sensitive elements and works with both AI and pre-AI lenses.

Judas window is a peroscopic optic that lets you see something outside the camera such as, for instance, the distance marks on the focusing ring of an Olympus Trip or the selected aperture on many Nikon and Minolta SLR's.

Wait, how does one use DP-3 with AI lenses? I mean I know if they have the bracket you can, but what specifically makes the DP-3 compatible and say the DP-1 not?

EDIT: oh, I misunderstood. You mean that's it's the only pre-AI finder (which all work with AI) that's equipped with SB cells.

Chan Tran · Nov 26, 2020

RLangham said:
LLP

Judas window is a peroscopic optic that lets you see something outside the camera such as, for instance, the distance marks on the focusing ring of an Olympus Trip or the selected aperture on many Nikon and Minolta SLR's.

Wait, how does one use DP-3 with AI lenses? I mean I know if they have the bracket you can, but what specifically makes the DP-3 compatible and say the DP-1 not?

EDIT: oh, I misunderstood. You mean that's it's the only pre-AI finder (which all work with AI) that's equipped with SB cells.

I believe the DP-3 is the same as DP-1 and DP-2 that is it has the aperture scale built in to the finder so it doesn't need the judas (Nikon called it ADR (aperture direct readout). It is needed on the DP-11 and DP-12 to see the aperture number on the secondary aperture scale on AI aperture ring.

BradS · Nov 26, 2020

RLangham said:
LLP

Judas window is a peroscopic optic that lets you see something outside the camera such as, for instance, the distance marks on the focusing ring of an Olympus Trip or the selected aperture on many Nikon and Minolta SLR's.

Wait, how does one use DP-3 with AI lenses? I mean I know if they have the bracket you can, but what specifically makes the DP-3 compatible and say the DP-1 not?

EDIT: oh, I misunderstood. You mean that's it's the only pre-AI finder (which all work with AI) that's equipped with SB cells.

Oh...got it. No the DP-1 does not have that periscope thingy. The DP-1, DP-2, DP-3 are all designed for use with the pre-AI lenses which do not have the redundant f-stop number markings...so those finders do not have the periscope thingy. Only the DP-11 and DP-12, which are designed for use with the AI lenses, have the periscope thingy.

Bill Burk · Nov 26, 2020

wiltw said:
It might have been that Nikon thought metal curtains made the issue of curtain burn less likely than cloth?!

I always liked that about the Contax “storage unit” shutter. No way you could burn through that.

Bill Burk · Nov 26, 2020

flavio81 said:
On the Nikon F it's easy to use as long as you have a crystal ball that allows you to look ahead into the future. Before any shot, just ask the crystal ball: "Will I need to lock the mirror up in the next picture?"

If the crystal ball says "yes"; then move the MLU dial, then take the current picture. The next picture will have the mirror locked up.

Does the F2 fix that? Does the F have the “30 seconds” exposure using the self timer ?

RLangham · Nov 26, 2020

Bill Burk said:
Does the F2 fix that? Does the F have the “30 seconds” exposure using the self timer ?

1: Yes. You can lock up the mirror at any time.
2: I'm nearly sure it doesn't.

BradS · Nov 26, 2020

Bill Burk said:
....Does the F have the “30 seconds” exposure using the self timer ?

the longest exposure the F2 will do with the self timer is ten seconds.

Les Sarile · Nov 26, 2020

flavio81 said:
On the Nikon F it's easy to use as long as you have a crystal ball that allows you to look ahead into the future. Before any shot, just ask the crystal ball: "Will I need to lock the mirror up in the next picture?"

If the crystal ball says "yes"; then move the MLU dial, then take the current picture. The next picture will have the mirror locked up.

You won't be able to focus or meter either.
But in Nikon's defense, they were first to implement mirror lockup. At leasty in my collection it is. Cameraquest believes the Nikon F is first too -> https://www.cameraquest.com/fhistory.htm

George Mann · Nov 27, 2020

Does Sover service the original photomic finders, or just the ones made for the F2?

Les Sarile · Nov 27, 2020

George Mann said:
Does Sover service the original photomic finders, or just the ones made for the F2?

On his website (https://soverf2repair.webs.com/) he states, "I specialise only in F2 repairs and nothing else." and he lists all the finders he works on and they are all F2 only.

flavio81 · Nov 27, 2020

Les Sarile said:
But in Nikon's defense, they were first to implement mirror lockup. At leasty in my collection it is. Cameraquest believes the Nikon F is first too -> https://www.cameraquest.com/fhistory.htm

Yes, most likely it was the first camera.

RLangham · Nov 27, 2020

flavio81 said:
Yes, most likely it was the first camera.

Except for dubious cases. There were early SLR's that had, instead of the automatic, non-returning mirrors like on Exacta, Praktica, Zenit et al, manual mirror control, where pressing down the (tall) shutter release button halfway directly raised the mirror against gravity or spring pressure via a lever. The mirror came down whenever you released the shutter release button all the way, even if you were in the middle of a long exposure, so you'd have to hold the button the whole time. Rectaflex is the main example I know of (I bought one for $15 at a thrift store once!) but there were others I think.

I think people definitely used that for the main reason we use MLU now: to reduce mirror slap. You'd just raise the mirror gently before pushing the button the last little bit to fire the shutter. I'm not sure but they may have also had non-retro wides on those cameras for which it would also function like MLU.

Les Sarile · Nov 27, 2020

flavio81 said:
Yes, most likely it was the first camera.

Regardless of this minor flaw, I keep them anyway . . .

George Mann · Nov 27, 2020

What's the rear mounted shutter button on the F like to operate? Does it take getting use to?

Any difficulties loading it with film?

Les Sarile · Nov 27, 2020

George Mann said:
What's the rear mounted shutter button on the F like to operate? Does it take getting use to?

Any difficulties loading it with film?

Film loading is inconvenient compared to a swing open back. The shutter button is not inconvenient at all once you are aware of it.

reddesert · Nov 27, 2020

Bill Burk said:
I never had a Nikon F or F2. Which is the best. I think I would truly only get the full experience if I tried the original F with Photomic finder and a 50mm f/1.4

But my wife asked me if it would work. Which is easier to repair? For example right now I have a Contax IIa color dial that I repaired without getting into the shutter region. And David Lyga guided me through soling a capping issue in my Spotmatic F. That’s about the limit of my repair ability.

The F2 is more modern in a few ways. The F is a classic.

If you get an F that is now in working order, the meter may die (if it hasn't already), but you will probably never need to repair the mechanics. Broken F's do exist, but they were probably used very hard; they are very durable.

Les Sarile · Nov 27, 2020

reddesert said:
Broken F's do exist, but they were probably used very hard; they are very durable.

Or not regularly exercised and stored in poor conditions!
Any metal to metal mechanism will require attention sooner or later depending on use and environment.

George Mann · Nov 27, 2020

Les Sarile said:
Film loading is inconvenient compared to a swing open back.

Then it couldn't be any worse than my Contaflex III. I was thinking of buying one along with a single-coated 50mm F2 to shoot b&w film with.

On the other hand, it wouldn't cost too much to refurbish my Nikkormat.

Autonerd · Nov 27, 2020

wiltw said:
The Nikon F2 is from around 1976. FEW SLRs used anything but horizontal cloth curtains back then! Nikkormat, Topcon D1 were two examples from the mid-1960s that had Copal Square shutters.

I believe the Asahi Penax Spotmatic ESII had a vertical metal shutter in 1971, as did the K2 in '75, and in '76 Pentax's entire M line (except the MX) went vertical.

Aaron

Why did Nikon F2 have horizontal shutter?

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