Why did Nikon F2 have horizontal shutter?

RLangham · Nov 23, 2020

I've been thinking about this a while and this may be blasphemous but... is there a known reason why a Copal Square-like design wasn't used on the F2? It would have given MUCH better flash performance, especially with bulbs, as M bulbs can sync with such shutters at all speeds. An X-sync speed of 1/125th may not be a full stop better than the F2's 1/70th (?) but in daylight for flash fill it can be nice to have that extra little bit.

Now, the F2 doesn't exactly lack in reliability (some would call it one of the most reliable mechanical SLR's ever made) but I will say that more than one person I've met said they damaged the foil curtains with an errant film leader. This wouldn't have happened with a design similar to the Nikkormat's shutter.

Plus, Nikon were literally one of the very first adopters of that technology when they contracted with Mamiya to make the Nikkorex F, the very first SLR with a Copal Sauare shutter, that ran alongside the Nikon F as their first budget SLR and a key predecessor to the Nikkormat.

So is there any reason they went with foul horizontally-moving curtains, beyond the dogma that orthodox technologies are safer?

flavio81 · Nov 23, 2020

RLangham said:
I've been thinking about this a while and this may be blasphemous but... is there a known reason why a Copal Square-like design wasn't used on the F2? It would have given MUCH better flash performance, especially with bulbs, as M bulbs can sync with such shutters at all speeds. An X-sync speed of 1/125th may not be a full stop better than the F2's 1/70th (?) but in daylight for flash fill it can be nice to have that extra little bit.

Now, the F2 doesn't exactly lack in reliability (some would call it one of the most reliable mechanical SLR's ever made) but I will say that more than one person I've met said they damaged the foil curtains with an errant film leader. This wouldn't have happened with a design similar to the Nikkormat's shutter.

Plus, Nikon were literally one of the very first adopters of that technology when they contracted with Mamiya to make the Nikkorex F, the very first SLR with a Copal Sauare shutter, that ran alongside the Nikon F as their first budget SLR and a key predecessor to the Nikkormat.

So is there any reason they went with foul horizontally-moving curtains, beyond the dogma that orthodox technologies are safer?

You will see that the Nikkormat shutter has stronger vibrations than the one in the F, which is ultra smooth. That's the reason in my camera collection almost all my cameras have horizontal shutters or leaf shutters. Only later cameras had gentler shutters.

Regarding fragility, poke a finger on the F2 curtain for a few mms and nothing wrong will happen. Do the same on a vertical shutter and you'll ruin the shutter.

I don't buy the claim that a film leader rendered the shutter inoperative.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

If you look in the EOS1V manual (others too?) there is a note in there stating that you should not face the camera towards the sun when the mirror is locked up as it will damage the shutter. This is not a problem on the titanium shutters used in the F2 and others.

BTW, the 80's pro bodies - Canon New F-1, Nikon F3 and Pentax LX, still had horizontal titanium shutters.

RLangham · Nov 23, 2020

flavio81 said:
You will see that the Nikkormat shutter has stronger vibrations than the one in the F, which is ultra smooth. That's the reason in my camera collection almost all my cameras have horizontal shutters or leaf shutters. Only later cameras had gentler shutters.

Regarding fragility, poke a finger on the F2 curtain for a few mms and nothing wrong will happen. Do the same on a vertical shutter and you'll ruin the shutter.

I don't buy the claim that a film leader rendered the shutter inoperative.

In the cases I describe the curtains weren't necessarily busted wide open, but creased or embossed enough to no longer be flat. Think: it wouldn't be accurate at high speeds due to tighter tolerances with a smaller slit, and the F2 went up to 1/2000th unlike most cameras of the time, so its tolerance is even tighter. Sure you can say that blunt trauma would damage the Copal shutter more readily but really no FP shutter can bear that much. They're a pretty delicate device in any iteration, and I still perceive a metal blind shutter as obviously the most generally resilient.

As for vibration, shutter vibration on an SLR should be the least of anyone's worries. Mirror slap is always more significant, and if you're upset about camera shake to the point of using mirror lockup, you should have it on a very steady tripod already, and if that's still not acceptable maybe small format SLR's aren't the camera for the job--more of an MF TLR or rangefinder sort of task.

RLangham · Nov 23, 2020

Les Sarile said:
If you look in the EOS1V manual (others too?) there is a note in there stating that you should not face the camera towards the sun when the mirror is locked up as it will damage the shutter. This is not a problem on the titanium shutters used in the F2 and others.

BTW, the 80's pro bodies - Canon New F-1, Nikon F3 and Pentax LX, still had horizontal titanium shutters.

I think that's a problem with the newer materials used on those shutters, not the steel used on first and second gen blind shutters like on the Nikkormat FT and Canon EF. As I recall EOS blinds are very very thin.

wiltw · Nov 23, 2020

The Nikon F2 is from around 1976. FEW SLRs used anything but horizontal cloth curtains back then! Nikkormat, Topcon D1 were two examples from the mid-1960s that had Copal Square shutters. The cameras with Titanium shutters alllowed faster shutter motion and faster sync speeds. But for whatever reason, the vertical travel metal shutters didn't come out until perhaps the 1980s.

RLangham · Nov 23, 2020

wiltw said:
The Nikon F2 is from around 1976. FEW SLRs used anything but horizontal cloth curtains back then! Nikkormat, Topcon D1 were two examples from the mid-1960s that had Copal Square shutters. The cameras with Titanium shutters alllowed faster shutter motion and faster sync speeds. But for whatever reason, the vertical travel metal shutters didn't come out until perhaps the 1980s.

I dunno, if even Chinon was shipping Copal Square copies (Chinon CS) then I think they'd caught on.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

wiltw said:
But for whatever reason, the vertical travel metal shutters didn't come out until perhaps the 1980s.

There were already many vertical shutter cameras in the 70s and everyone was already aware of the big discrepancy in sync speed.

BradS · Nov 23, 2020

Likely cost was a not insignificant consideration. I assume that Nikon would have to purchase the coral square or license the design whereas they could make the horizontally traveling focal plane shutter in house.

BradS · Nov 23, 2020

Oh, and let’s not forget that with the F2, Nikon were just correcting the few things they got wrong on the Nikon F.....and the Nikon F is kinda based roughly on the earlier Nikon SP range finders. The Japanese are very good at this...making small incremental changes. Changing the shutter would have been much too drastic.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

Apparently Nikon conducted numerous tests and determined that the horizontal shutter was still the best for their pro body the F3. It states in https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/history-f3/index.htm , "For the F3 shutter, a modular design of our original horizontal-travel titanium foil shutter was selected. In the first year, a thorough analysis was carried out on the accuracy and durability of the shutter to ensure adequate mechanical reliability."

Finally with the F4, they needed much higher speeds that could only be achieved with vertical shutters (https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/history-f4/index.htm) but reliability and durability were still top priority.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

The Nikon history pages happened to have two articles about their shutter development that reinforces the need for durability and reliability.
Part 1 https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/rhnc10shut-e/index.htm
Part 2 https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/rhnc11shut2-e/index.htm

I really wished the other brands would have documented theirs even half as well.

GRHazelton · Nov 23, 2020

Les Sarile said:
If you look in the EOS1V manual (others too?) there is a note in there stating that you should not face the camera towards the sun when the mirror is locked up as it will damage the shutter. This is not a problem on the titanium shutters used in the F2 and others.

BTW, the 80's pro bodies - Canon New F-1, Nikon F3 and Pentax LX, still had horizontal titanium shutters.

Interestingly the Canon P has a horizontally run stainless steel shutter. Most have some "wrinkles" in them which don't seem to affect the shutter.

BradS · Nov 23, 2020

Les Sarile said:
The Nikon history pages happened to have two articles about their shutter development that reinforces the need for durability and reliability.
Part 1 https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/rhnc10shut-e/index.htm
Part 2 https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/rhnc11shut2-e/index.htm

I really wished the other brands would have documented theirs even half as well.

Fascinating. Thanks Les!

RLangham · Nov 23, 2020

GRHazelton said:
Interestingly the Canon P has a horizontally run stainless steel shutter. Most have some "wrinkles" in them which don't seem to affect the shutter.

Apparently pro guys used to get a junked F2 body (not hard in some fields, where they abused the hell out of them) and have the metal curtains put in other pro camera bodies like the first five Leica M's. My tech talks like it's an easy procedure!

wiltw · Nov 23, 2020

From Wikipedia:

"Square-type FP shutters were originally bulky in size and noisy in operation, limiting their popularity in the 1960s among camera designers and photographers.[22] Although Konica and Nikkormat were major users of the Copal Square, many other brands including Asahi Pentax, Canon, Leica and Minolta continued to refine the Leica-type shutter for reliability, if not speed; moving from three axis to four axis designs (one control axis for each curtain drum axis, instead of one control for both drums)...
The vertical blade type supplanted the horizontal cloth type as the dominant FP shutter type in the 1980s. Even Leica Camera (originally E. Leitz), long a champion of the horizontal cloth FP shutter for its quietness, switched to a vertical metal FP shutter in 2006 for its first digital rangefinder (RF) camera, the Leica M8 (Germany)."

...AFTER the F2 was launched.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

GRHazelton said:
Interestingly the Canon P has a horizontally run stainless steel shutter. Most have some "wrinkles" in them which don't seem to affect the shutter.

I bet they didn't have a note in their manual about being careful not to poke your finger through it!

RLangham · Nov 23, 2020

wiltw said:
From Wikipedia:

"Square-type FP shutters were originally bulky in size and noisy in operation, limiting their popularity in the 1960s among camera designers and photographers.[22] Although Konica and Nikkormat were major users of the Copal Square, many other brands including Asahi Pentax, Canon, Leica and Minolta continued to refine the Leica-type shutter for reliability, if not speed; moving from three axis to four axis designs (one control axis for each curtain drum axis, instead of one control for both drums)...
The vertical blade type supplanted the horizontal cloth type as the dominant FP shutter type in the 1980s. Even Leica Camera (originally E. Leitz), long a champion of the horizontal cloth FP shutter for its quietness, switched to a vertical metal FP shutter in 2006 for its first digital rangefinder (RF) camera, the Leica M8 (Germany)."

...AFTER the F2 was launched.

I don't see what this proves. Most of those cameras still had cloth shutters while the F2 made a departure and used foil. The F2 was emphatically not defined only by the trends of the broader market.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

RLangham said:
I don't see what this proves. Most of those cameras still had cloth shutters while the F2 made a departure and used foil. The F2 was emphatically not defined only by the trends of the broader market.

Titanium foil was used on the F as well according to the Nikon history pages.
The part 2 of the shutter history discusses vertical shutter development in the 60's. Apparently Konica did as well.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

wiltw said:
From Wikipedia:

. . .
...AFTER the F2 was launched.

No doubt many did not spend the effort to further develop vertical shutters. By doing this in the 60s, maybe a reason why Nikon achieved 1/4000 top shutter speed and 1/250 sync speed earlier then the others?

And of course the ultimate in hybrid shutter technology - aperture priority with batteries and full mechanical speed without, in the FM3A.

GRHazelton · Nov 23, 2020

Les Sarile said:
I bet they didn't have a note in their manual about being careful not to poke your finger through it!

I downloaded the manual from Brother Butkus' excellent website orphancameras.com. I don't recall seeing anything about not poking your finger through the shutter, I'd think that would be common sense. I don't recall where I found the wrinkle info. A metal focal plane shutter is, IMHO, far preferable to a cloth shutter in a rangefinder camera like the Canon P, since it can't be damaged by accidentally leaving the camera pointed toward the sun. I have the lovely Pentax 50mm f1.2 lens, once while idly admiring it I focused the sun's image COMING THROUGH A WINDOW on my hand. Not fun! A lens of that speed at full aperture would burn a cloth focal plane shutter very rapidly, and of course the film behind the shutter. Imagine, wisps of smoke coming from your classic Leica ......

Sirius Glass · Nov 23, 2020

Minolta SRT-SR ... also had horizontal shutters. The engineers determined that a horizontal shutter was the best to use. Use the camera and enjoy it or buy another brand.

Les Sarile · Nov 23, 2020

GRHazelton said:
I downloaded the manual from Brother Butkus' excellent website orphancameras.com. I don't recall seeing anything about not poking your finger through the shutter, I'd think that would be common sense. I don't recall where I found the wrinkle info. A metal focal plane shutter is, IMHO, far preferable to a cloth shutter in a rangefinder camera like the Canon P, since it can't be damaged by accidentally leaving the camera pointed toward the sun. I have the lovely Pentax 50mm f1.2 lens, once while idly admiring it I focused the sun's image COMING THROUGH A WINDOW on my hand. Not fun! A lens of that speed at full aperture would burn a cloth focal plane shutter very rapidly, and of course the film behind the shutter. Imagine, wisps of smoke coming from your classic Leica ......

I don't think common sense is the issue since one has to feed that film and there's plenty of opportunity for a mishap . . .

And that's why you need that f1.2 on a Pentax LX since it has the titanium horizontal shutter that can be pointed at the sun . . . or studio lights . . .

flavio81 · Nov 23, 2020

RLangham said:
In the cases I describe the curtains weren't necessarily busted wide open, but creased or embossed enough to no longer be flat. Think: it wouldn't be accurate at high speeds due to tighter tolerances with a smaller slit, and the F2 went up to 1/2000th unlike most cameras of the time, so its tolerance is even tighter.

That's your speculation. I had a F2 with wrinkled curtain and got an uniform 1/2000 and 1/1000 speeds with no problem. Something you need to keep in mind: At those speeds, the curtain DOESN'T travel faster. It is always traveling at the same speed. As long as the two curtains are traveling at the same speed, everything will be fine.

RLangham said:
Sure you can say that blunt trauma would damage the Copal shutter more readily but really no FP shutter can bear that much..

You are not consideiring that the horizontal shutter is made of two continuous foils, while the vertical shutter has small blades each one joined by its end to an articulated mechanism. Blades need to be flat and straight in order for the "fan" to collapse. Thus, bend a blade, and the shutter won't work anymore. This is totally different to what would happen on an horizontal shutter.

RLangham said:
As for vibration, shutter vibration on an SLR should be the least of anyone's worries. Mirror slap is always more significant, .

Tell that to a Pentax 6x7 owner and see what replies do you get.

Shutter vibrations are also significant. Just grab a Nikkormat and add mirror lockup, now compare with a Nikon F2 with mirror lockup. The Nikkormat has much stronger vibrations and those can be felt readily. Even worse with a camera like the Prakticas with vertical shutters (have you held and fired one?). Same with my Nikon FE versus the Nikon F3, both in mirror lock-up mode.

You can take a look at hte measurements done by Popular Photography and other magazines; for example the Nikon FA has higher measured vibration than the F3. Now, a much later camera like the Nikon N80 has a much smoother vertical shutter. And probably the F4 has a shutter as smooth as the one in the F3.

As for tripods, if a tripod damped every vibration out there, then it wouldn't make any difference to use a camera without mirror lock up (MLU) or with mirror lock-up if it's placed on a tripod.

Testing has shown this is not the case. So even if you've a camera placed in a tripod, the camera with the smoothest shutter will extract the maximum performance from the lens.

flavio81 · Nov 23, 2020

RLangham said:
Most of those cameras still had cloth shutters while the F2 made a departure and used foil.

There were many cameras with metal foil curtains before the Nikon F2, for example the Nikon F(1959) and many rangefinder cameras down to the Contax I of 1932.

Why did Nikon F2 have horizontal shutter?

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