Why did Kodachrome fail in the end?

[Xmas]

This '21st century" that so many hype as some kind of great new era, so far hasn't been very good at all. Whole swathes of industries and lifestyles have been turned into wagon wheels and buggy whips by the computer. My own field is one of the hardest hit. And I don't see an ounce of improvement in any of it.

Koda chrome was like butter it was selling so slow it became rancid...

 

[NJH]

I don't know I think globalisation and multinational retailers are the worst culprit, instead of getting the same quality at a cheaper price you usually end up with awful quality at a price which ultimately has huge costs and profit for the supply and retail chain built in. Shoes are a good example, I gave up several years ago buying shoes from the generic UK retailers that last 6 months at best and worked out it would be cheaper in the long run to pay 3x to 4x more for proper quality made in England shoes and then get them repaired locally when needed. People are slowly waking up to the biggest con of the 20th century but it will take time.

Biggest problem with computerisation is it makes professionals overly dependant on the what the computer can do to the level that they are incapable of thinking for themselves, or even understanding why they are using the tool. I work in big engineering and coined a phrase "tool jockeys" for these guys which seems to have caught on. I can't claim any credit for inventing it as I can't have been the first person to notice the legion of engineers which are incapable of doing anything without their DOORS, rhapsody, autocad, proengineer, CFX "insert name here" software toolset. Its got to the point that companies employ people on the basis solely of the software tools they can tick off on their CV, not whether or not they have a clue about any actual engineering.

 

[Sirius Glass]

People were losing interest in slides with the rise of digital. Ektachrome is superior in many ways and easier to manufacture and develop. The lose of sales killed it, but Kodak kept it alive so that it could reach the 75th anniversary.

 

[falotico]

Don't want to reopen the KChrome wars, but it was always a Kodak product which I loved. I am in possession of color slides over 60 years old and they look beautiful. Few color images can compare with the resolution and color saturation. Modern digital technology does pump up the color values and has very good yellows, but I imagine in a few years these qualities will begin to look artificial and dated. In 60 years will we be able to present a Digi camera image with the ease that matches pulling a 35 mm slide out of a box? It will probably be harder than getting music out of an old player piano roll.

KChrome has an elegant design and the happy accident that it is an archival format. Evans, Hanson and Brewer in "Principles of Color Photography" recommend a p-phenylenediamine type developer with the couplers 2,4-dichloro-1-napthol, p-nitrobenzyl-cyanide and naphthoylacetanilide (p. 261). So recreating the film in small batches ought to be possible, if anyone wanted it. But suggesting this is like drawing a cartoon of the prophet and I am afraid of the anti-K film fatwa. No one will be able to make it as well as EK, but it is by no means a lost recipe.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

But suggesting this is like drawing a cartoon of the prophet and I am afraid of the anti-K film fatwa.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

What about the diskettes they are stored on? I have trouble buying 3 1/4 inch floppies and the larger ones are impossible. Drives are going bad.

PE

Not even going with the fact that floppy drives have not been in any new computer for many years, they were a reliability disaster. I had a set of Windows 3.11 (yes, a LONG time ago) floppies and some sectors went bed. Wipeout, worthless.

Keep stuff on an external backup and then on the cloud like Carbonite or Crash Plan.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Not my experience, my fathers Kodachromes have faded very significantly over the years. Optimism can be unfounded and bare little resemblance to reality.

I should add he shot on early Kodachrome and they were processed by Kodak and fading was noticeable within 20 yeras, my Kodachromes shot about 40 years ago are OK but so are my E4, Agfachrome and E6.

Ian

I have about three images in 35mm KC - where are the rest, Dad? Huh? - almost 100 on 4x5, all perfect, and quite a few minutes in 16mm film. (Thank you, thank you Dad!) The latter are a bit faded or let's just say, not as robust.

 

[ME Super]

Don't want to reopen the KChrome wars, but it was always a Kodak product which I loved. I am in possession of color slides over 60 years old and they look beautiful. Few color images can compare with the resolution and color saturation. Modern digital technology does pump up the color values and has very good yellows, but I imagine in a few years these qualities will begin to look artificial and dated. In 60 years will we be able to present a Digi camera image with the ease that matches pulling a 35 mm slide out of a box? It will probably be harder than getting music out of an old player piano roll.

KChrome has an elegant design and the happy accident that it is an archival format. Evans, Hanson and Brewer in "Principles of Color Photography" recommend a p-phenylenediamine type developer with the couplers 2,4-dichloro-1-napthol, p-nitrobenzyl-cyanide and naphthoylacetanilide (p. 261). So recreating the film in small batches ought to be possible, if anyone wanted it. But suggesting this is like drawing a cartoon of the prophet and I am afraid of the anti-K film fatwa. No one will be able to make it as well as EK, but it is by no means a lost recipe.

PE's second book (currently being written), is supposed to contain an appendix on color film design. He's also written extensively here in the dreaded Kodachrome threads about Kodachrome in particular. EK abandoned the patent on K-14, so it shouldn't be too difficult to dig up the info on how to make it, either here or by researching the patent. Making it, however, is another story. And good luck finding CD-6 for processing of one of the color layers, as it was made just for processing Kodachrome. It was to be used in an update to E-6 type films, but EK ran into antitrust issues and didn't pursue it, so E-6, which uses CD-3, was never superseded with E-7 (IDK if that's what they would've called it, but the name makes sense to me), which most certainly would've used CD-6.

 

[ME Super]

Found a thread where PE talks about the abandonment of the patent for K-14. He is the co-inventor of the CD-6 color developer used in the K-14 process. Here's the thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Dont overdo my contribution to Kodachrome. I worked on CD6 and not Kodachrome. Quite a different story.

As far as old OS's go, there are copies on the internet and they run in virtual windows under the current windows machines using emulators such as VMWARE.

PE

 

[mts]

Off topic reply, but then so is KC which is long dead. You can run many old programs under current windows systems by using DOSBOX which emulates the DOS/OS. You can download it for free from www.sourceforge.net

 

[Arctic amateur]

I've heard that Kodachrome film is basically BW film and the dyes are added to the film during processing?

What does that mean? Surely I couldn't run HP-5 in K14 and get a colour image.

 

[ME Super]

E6 films have the color couplers built in to the emulsions. The color couplers react with the oxidized developer to produce the dyes you see in the processed film. In Kodachrome, the couplers are in the developer. If you ran HP5+ in K14, you may not end up with a full color image because the sensitizing dyes are different. Basic structure of color film is base, red sensitive layer, green sensitive layer, yellow filter layer, blue sensitive layer. The yellow filter layer is there to block blue light from reaching the red and green sensitive layers, as they are also blue sensitive. While HP5+ is also a B&W film, its structure and sensitization are not the same as for a color film.

Now, if you exposed three strips of HP5+ through a red, green, and blue filter, run the red strip through the first developer and cyan developer, the green strip through the first developer and magenta developer, and the blue strip through the first developer and yellow developer, (don't forget to bleach and fix!) of the K14 process, then laminated the three strips together, you'd get a full color image.

 

[ME Super]

Dont overdo my contribution to Kodachrome. I worked on CD6 and not Kodachrome. Quite a different story.

As far as old OS's go, there are copies on the internet and they run in virtual windows under the current windows machines using emulators such as VMWARE.

PE

I believe you had covered sensitizing dyes and possibly couplers, and briefly mentioned a way (without a ton of detail) how to convert CD-4 into CD-6. If I recall correctly, you've also said that if we want to process Kodachrome as full color, use the K-14 process, but incorporate E-6 couplers into the three color developers required for K-14 (and use CD-3 in all three color developer steps). I could be wrong, though, and if so, I apologize.

 

[Photo Engineer]

ME, it is more difficult than that. That is a grossly oversimplified version of what is done and must be done to get color like Kodachrome. There are few that would understand the entire process to make a modern replica.

PE

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Now, if you exposed three strips of HP5+ through a red, green, and blue filter, run the red strip through the first developer and cyan developer, the green strip through the first developer and magenta developer, and the blue strip through the first developer and yellow developer, (don't forget to bleach and fix!) of the K14 process, then laminated the three strips together, you'd get a full color image.

this is actually far more complicated than described here, to yield a good image you need to consider a number of issues.

A, The spectral sensitivity of the black and white film you choose
B, The Red, Green and Blue Filter you choose in relation to the chosen films sensitivity
C, Film Exposure though each filter.
D, Development contrast and density for each of the film frames
E, Registration of the 3 frames as to avoid colour aberration

this list covers a select few of the primary issues though there are others.

The biggest thing I learned when experimenting with converting black and white films into colour mediums is that when black and white films are made they dont seem to have been engineered to easily convert into accurate colour.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There were several camera films and several lab films that were engineered for this.

The camera film that I remember was Super XX, and the lab films were Pan Masking, Pan Matrix and Matrix to name a few.

But you are right Steve, this is a complex problem with only an overview here.

PE

 

[alanrockwood]

I have some Kodachrome slides I made in about 1970. They look like they were shot yesterday. My Ektachromes of the same vintage are terribly faded.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Alan, at the time you write of, Kodak was only discovering that micro crystalline dyes were part of the clue to dye stability. The other part was the use of free radical chain stoppers like Vitamin E. The crystallization was part of the Kodachrome secret and was first applied to Ektacolor 37 paper as was the Vitamin E work alike.

There were claims that Kodak did not care and other negative statements such as those by Henry Wilhelm. However, the image stability problem was foremost in most all Kodak film projects.

PE

 

[ME Super]

this is actually far more complicated than described here, to yield a good image you need to consider a number of issues.

A, The spectral sensitivity of the black and white film you choose
B, The Red, Green and Blue Filter you choose in relation to the chosen films sensitivity
C, Film Exposure though each filter.
D, Development contrast and density for each of the film frames
E, Registration of the 3 frames as to avoid colour aberration

this list covers a select few of the primary issues though there are others.

The biggest thing I learned when experimenting with converting black and white films into colour mediums is that when black and white films are made they dont seem to have been engineered to easily convert into accurate colour.

You are correct, of course. What I posted was a gross simplification intended to get across, in general, what would be involved. I figured I'd left a lot out. I dare say you and PE have way more experience than I at hand processing Kodachrome. Which, if you've hand processed a single frame of Kodachrome, you've done more than I have!

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Alan, at the time you write of, Kodak was only discovering that micro crystalline dyes were part of the clue to dye stability. The other part was the use of free radical chain stoppers like Vitamin E. The crystallization was part of the Kodachrome secret and was first applied to Ektacolor 37 paper as was the Vitamin E work alike.

There were claims that Kodak did not care and other negative statements such as those by Henry Wilhelm. However, the image stability problem was foremost in most all Kodak film projects.

PE

I didn't understand that, but thanks!

Oh yeah, I have two 16mm film magazines loaded with Super XX. Once I figure out how I can develop said film, I'll shoot them. I remember shooting XX in 35mm, too, many years ago.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I don't have time to read all the preceding posts. But here's my take on it strictly from a personal experience standpoint, that I am certainly
not alone. Kodachrome is a pretty fussy process to develop requiring dedicated machinery. Several things happened roughly around the same
time. Kodak spun off development to a third party called Kodalux, and they started botching things. Slides came back scratched etc. Then Kodak decided that K64 was good enough, so dropped K25, which was really the superior product in many respects. Then E6 films started getting better, and were a helluva lot easier to make and process. Then they introduced 120 Kodachrome and made a big hoopla about it,
but dropped it soon afterwards, which left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But I don't think there has ever really been a substitute for that
Kodachrome look. I don't know exactly how far back Kodachrome goes; but I've seen 5x7 sheet film images on it possibly 70 years old that
look like they were taken yesterday.

 

[trythis]

What I don't understand is why people keep buying the stuff on dEbay.


Typos made on a tiny phone...

 

[Paul Verizzo]

I don't have time to read all the preceding posts. But here's my take on it strictly from a personal experience standpoint, that I am certainly
not alone. Kodachrome is a pretty fussy process to develop requiring dedicated machinery. Several things happened roughly around the same
time. Kodak spun off development to a third party called Kodalux, and they started botching things. Slides came back scratched etc. Then Kodak decided that K64 was good enough, so dropped K25, which was really the superior product in many respects. Then E6 films started getting better, and were a helluva lot easier to make and process. Then they introduced 120 Kodachrome and made a big hoopla about it,
but dropped it soon afterwards, which left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But I don't think there has ever really been a substitute for that
Kodachrome look. I don't know exactly how far back Kodachrome goes; but I've seen 5x7 sheet film images on it possibly 70 years old that
look like they were taken yesterday.

I have almost 100 KC 4x5's from the 1940's, and some 16mm footage. Thank you Dad!

 

[Photo Engineer]

I didn't understand that, but thanks!

Oh yeah, I have two 16mm film magazines loaded with Super XX. Once I figure out how I can develop said film, I'll shoot them. I remember shooting XX in 35mm, too, many years ago.

Seven to 9 minutes in D76.