• Welcome to Photrio!
    Registration is fast and free. Join today to unlock search, see fewer ads, and access all forum features.
    Click here to sign up

Why did drum scanners give way to other technology?

Lachlan Young

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
5,077
Location
Glasgow
Format
Multi Format

2000spi scanning on a machine everyone would immediately recognise as a drum scanner was being done from the end of the 1940s, albeit scanning direct to separations with vacuum tube logic to correct for colour & contrast. Time-Life was the first major adopter/ funder of this technology. At this point in time, a great deal of traditional colour separation contrast/ colour correction for print (especially rotogravure) was done by skilled hand retouching on glass plate separations, not by register masking (that would need the introduction of PET film base a decade later to really become dominant).

It really took Rudolf Hell's innovations at the start of the 1970s (putting an image manipulation system between scanner and film writer) to really begin to compete more effectively with traditional pre-press.
 

calebarchie

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
704
Location
Australia 2680
Format
Hybrid
I have a feeling you are not talking about (photographic) film scanning…

Yep, therein lies the answer though.

@koraks You were describing the basis of a flying spot scanner, just pointing out the related and pretty relevant history of telecine.

@Scott J. Actually, the majority drum scanners moved the pickup head (light source and pmts) instead of the drum. Scanmates did the opposite and had issues, just off the top of my head.
 

Scott J.

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
168
Location
Wyoming
Format
Large Format
Actually, the majority drum scanners moved the pickup head (light source and pmts) instead of the drum. Scanmates did the opposite and had issues, just off the top of my head.

You might be right. The Howtek/Aztek scanners definitely utilize a movable drum (i.e., the light source and optics bench remain stationary). I always thought other table-top drum scanners utilized a similar design, but now that I'm looking more closely at some pictures of a Screen DTS-1030AI (just as an example), it does look like the light source and optics bench are connected and move in unison relative to a stationary/non-translating drum.

In any case, what I was more cautioning against in designing our hypothetical PMT flatbed scanner was the situation where you had a light source and an optics bench that were not rigidly connected (for whatever design reason) and had to move on independent carriages. That would be a nightmare for maintaining beam alignment (which is obviously why the drum scanner manufactures avoided it!).
 

bfilm

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
381
Location
Texas
Format
35mm
Drum scanners gave way to other technology because people quit caring about quality. Convenience and novelty became what people like.

There has never been anything better or more appropriate than good quality glass lenses, incandescent lamps and photomultiplier tubes to make the most beautiful and analog of scans.

Dr.-Ing. Rudolf Hell made some of the nicest drum scanners from 1963 with the introduction of the Chromagraph scanners.

Here is the DC 300 series, circa 1970s.





Here is the DC 3000 series, circa late 1980s. The DC 3000 series models from the 1980s and 1990s are still today some of the best drum scanners in use. In the late 1990s, then under the Linotype-Hell and later Heidelberg companies, they went to the vertical drum with the Tango and Primescan models. These are also very nice and stll in use today.

 

Pieter12

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
8,164
Location
Magrathean's computer
Format
Super8
Drum scanners gave way to other technology because people quit caring about quality. Convenience and novelty became what people like.
Drum scanners were never the domain of casual, personal scanning. They remain professional gear used by the printing industry for quality work. When folks decided it was a novel idea to shoot film and have it scanned to a CD or downloadable files, they did not want to pay for the quality of a drum scan, other options being much cheaper and good enough for their purposes--mostly viewing on a screen. And of course, a drum scanner has always been out of reach for home use.
 

bfilm

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
381
Location
Texas
Format
35mm

Yes, but the problem is that drum scanners have mostly fallen out of professional use. Book and magazine publishing isn't what it once was. Aesthetic and production quality has greatly declined in most places.
 

RMD

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
87
Format
35mm
Yes, but the problem is that drum scanners have mostly fallen out of professional use. Book and magazine publishing isn't what it once was. Aesthetic and production quality has greatly declined in most places.

Purely out of curiosity,and waiting for a lottery win,are there any companies today maufacturing NEW drum scanners ?
 

Alan Edward Klein

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Messages
10,142
Location
New Jersey formerly NYC
Format
Multi Format
I did this comparison between my Epson V850 scan and a Howtek 8000 scan owned by some one else who scanned my 4x5 Tmax 100 negative. The V850 compared favorably I believe at least looking at it digitally. I never did prints however.

 

bfilm

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
381
Location
Texas
Format
35mm
Purely out of curiosity,and waiting for a lottery win,are there any companies today maufacturing NEW drum scanners ?

Not that I know of, although I am always hoping to discover that there is someone making them. But there are still places making good quality glass lenses, incandescent lamps and photomultiplier tubes, so then we just need someone with the knowledge, skill, and impetus to build the scanner.

You can still buy software for the Hell/Linotype-Hell/Heidelberg Chromagraph 3300, 3400, Tango, and Primescan models from LaserSoft Imaging (SilverFast High-End Suite). And you can still buy software for the Howtek/Aztek 2500, 4000, 4500, 6500, 7500, 8000, and Premier from Aztek (Digital PhotoLab). But the software from both companies requires older versions of operating systems, so sourcing that would also have to be taken into account.

There are also some people who still service and refurbish the abovementioned drum scanners. And perhaps there are still some people maintaining other makes of drum scanners.
 

Scott J.

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
168
Location
Wyoming
Format
Large Format

The current Aztek software for running Howtek and Aztek drum scanners -- i.e., Digital Photo Lab 8 -- works on modern 64-bit Windows 10 machines (and I would presume Windows 11, as well, though I've not personally confirmed this).
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,814
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
I think the cost was what killed the drum scanners.
 

bfilm

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Nov 11, 2023
Messages
381
Location
Texas
Format
35mm
I think the cost was what killed the drum scanners.

They were certainly expensive, but if we are considering them in the publishing and printing field, or even the professional film lab, all of the nice equipment is expensive.

I think the cost became less justifiable to people as the prevalence of film photography declined. And that is a very sad situation.

Most people consider things almost solely quantitatively now instead of qualitatively, whereas the word quality should be a big hint. Analog is and always will be king. Analog is just more beautiful and harmonious with human vision. And if you are going to use some form of digital intermediate, then drum scanning is the most analog form of scanning.
 
Last edited:

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
26,692
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
The V850 compared favorably I believe at least looking at it digitally.
Any comparison can be favorable as long as you look from a sufficiently large distance and with sufficiently low standards. You've posted this example many times before; I've always found it an apt demonstration of the significantly higher quality of a drum scan compared to a flatbed scan even in an informal, poorly controlled setup with digital post processing that's...well, let's be generous and call it 'haphazard'.

Of course, what your example and especially your assessment does illustrate is why drum scanners just don't have that much practical relevance in (amateur) photographic scanning today. The alternatives are simply good enough for the majority of people.
 

Alan Edward Klein

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Messages
10,142
Location
New Jersey formerly NYC
Format
Multi Format
First off, the process of comparison was not haphazard. I'll let the readers who review the whole comparison thread, see how it was done and what the results look like, and make their own decision.

I post this comparison because it shows that a good flatbed scanner is sufficiently professional enough for most photographers. You don't need a drum scanner.
 

Pieter12

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
8,164
Location
Magrathean's computer
Format
Super8

Very true, photographers don‘t need drum scanners. Printers do.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,814
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format

I agree on all your points.
 

Karl Hudson

Subscriber
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
12
Location
Kiel, Germany
Format
Analog
I only just now stumbled across this question...and it's a very Good Question! Storytime...

I started my career "traveling with a tool bag" in 1984 for Dr. HELL in Kiel, Germany. I was fresh out of college with a B.S.E.E.T. I worked for the Atlanta office of HELL Graphic Systems (as it was called in the USA). These drum scanners were created for the commercial printing industry. Before digital photography, everything you saw around you, that was printed in color, had to be color-separated and output to film as rasterized dots for eventual transfer to an aluminum printing plate (one for each ink color). That's how the photographer's color shots were transferred to paper tens or hundreds of thousands of times over. The scanners were nicknamed "cash machines" back then, because there were so many scanning jobs available everywhere. Catalogs, brochures, magazines, packaging...basically everything that was being produced in volume on a printing press originated in a film camera by a photographer. This went on for decades and my customers were usually "color houses" where the film separations (CMYK) were produced by the HELL scanner and then "stripped" together with the typesetting films from the "black & white" houses down the street or across town. These were usually family-owned businesses that specialized in one or the other. The color seps were pretty expensive, so one would usually find a large room full of light tables just outside the scanner room, where the color seps and the black & white typesetting films were stripped together by hand using an Exacto Knife on a light table with a small jar of "opaque" and a paint brush on the side to blot out any dust or specks in the "paste-up" film negative. Yep, it was all pasted together by hand using ruby-lith scotch tape. The final page assembly was then placed in a vacuum frame and transferred to a final composite film which was then sent out to the printing company. There, the composite film was transferred under a UV Light (vacuum frame again) to a conventional aluminum press plate which was going to pick up the ink from the ink blanket and land the image on the paper using at least four passes (CMYK).

Some of these color houses invested in the million dollar HELL Chromacom System Interface for the drum scanner which would pick off the picture signal and send it to a 300MB disk drive (which resembled a washing machine and required a clean room environment). All the other (non digital) color houses were outputting the film seps on-the-fly, using the exposing half of the drum scanner (six modulated laser beams building 1/2 a screen dot per drum revolution). A poster would require scanning the same image four times (once for each color sep). If the image was small enough to fit on the large 8-up output drum (in the case of the HELL CP-341 "Chromagraph Poster"), then the scanner could output four separate color separations during a single scan process. The HELL Chromacom had an Image Memory Unit (IMU) and allowed an experienced operator to airbrush images, merge images, etc. at a rate of $600/hour. The Chromacom was the forerunner of Photoshop. Publications like National Geographic were being assembled four to six months ahead of time, were heavily retouched in D.C. or Charlotte, NC and printed in Corinth, MS. Because of the super huge press run, they engraved copper cylinders using the digital data from the Chromacom. Back then it was about a pound of paper and a pound of ink in each issue. The HELL Helio-Klischograph engraves copper cylinders to this day and there's still a remnant of the HELL company in Kiel, Germany called HELL Gravure. They have close to a worldwide monopoly on rotogravure manufacturing and are now in the process of moving into a new building in Klausdorf (just outside of Kiel).

Desktop publishing came along in the 90s as a natural marriage between typesetting, color separations, and photo retouching, all came under one roof. The acre of light tables disappeared and the Chromacom was replaced by a Mac Department where my customers were purchasing Macs ten at a time. Towards the end of the 90s digital cameras came out and at first they were viewed as "cool toys" but unable to come anywhere close to the quality of a drum-scanned film. As we all know, the quality improvements happened rapidly and by 2001, the Desktop-Publishing departments were receiving Kodak Photo CDs in the front door instead of physical film shots from an analog camera.

NOTE* The famous typesetting company Linotype embraced Adobe's Postscript Language early on and made their RIPs (Raster Image Processors), "Postscript language compatible". This is why Linotype remained while their competition all went out of business (Varityper, Compugrahic, and others). With color and typesetting merging on the desktop, it was a natural progression for the German leader in color to merge with the German leader in typesetting, creating the Linotype-HELL company in 1991. I told my colleagues back then that the next natural progression would be for the German leader in Press technology to merge with the newly formed Linotype-HELL company. In 1996, while attending the Summer Olympics in my hometown of Atlanta, I received the text message on my digital pager that "Heidelberg just bought us!". This new company comprised nearly 25,000 employees worldwide and the cashflow in the printing industry was insanely high. Everyone was riding high until the world changed during the Chicago Print Show on September 11, 2001. Air traffic was halted across the USA and what had looked like a really successful year at "Print '01" became a bust. Heidelberg management deferred decison-making over to the Accounting department as did management decision-making across corporate America. The question on what to do to make the quarter look good became the driving force for a very long time in America. Corporate culture changed into squeezing & extracting from that point onward.

Meanwhile digital cameras had come a long way and in the first half of 2002 Heidelberg management reviewed the Marketing Department's Annual Report for 2001 activity where it was revealed that Heidelberg held about 60% of the global high end scanning market, but they had only delivered 80 units that year. It was clear that digital photography was good enough for magazines, catalogs, brochures, and packaging. The hammer dropped that same day with a global email to all 25,000 employees announcing an immediate end to drum & flatbed scanner assembly lines in Kiel, Germany, and an immediate end to all software development (Newcolor). The sales force was told separately about a 75% reduction in price on all currently held scanner inventories.

THAT is why photomultiplier-based drum scanning technology came to a sudden and abrupt halt!

In early 2001 I had met a girl during a factory training class in Germany who liked me a lot and wanted me to move over to Kiel, so I quit my good job at Heidelberg in 2003 to expand my horizons. I continued with selling and servicing second-hand thermal platesetters (computer to plate or 'CTP') up until that became no fun (due to the number of printing companies stiffing me on the bill by going bankrupt or just behaving like criminals). Much of the commercial printing industry was shrinking and gradually switching over to short run, variable data digital printing (toner based high speed copiers in a sense). The Age of Junk Mail was on track to plague humanity indefinitely. I had about $40k in open invoices when I heard about an online Yahoo Group for Tango / Primescan enthusiasts (started by Ernst Vegt in Vancouver). That was 2010 and I was member number 35! I thought well, I grew up working on drum scanners and I'm still amazed to this day what a drum scanner can see in a piece of film, so I'll happily help out anyone trying to keep these babies going into the 21st Century. I mean scanners are cool, man...I hated to see them die. I never intended to make it a new career move, but by 2013 I was having a lot more fun traveling around Europe and N. America (w/ toolbag) meeting some of the coolest humans ever: Analog Photographers! I sold my whole stock of thermal platesetters to one dude who still greets me every Christmas to this day. His name is Yousef and he told me, "Karl, you are manna from heaven" while I was helping him crate up all those systems in 2013 and I told him, "Yousef, I hope you make a ton of money off this stuff". I was making room for my new mission of rescuing vintage Heidelberg drum & flatbed scanners. Analog was making a comeback in the audio world, so I took my cue to keep high quality analog film scanning alive for those seeking "museum quality" digitization of prized shots. It's all about Art now for these machines and it's mostly associated with medium and large format photography. That Yahoo Group has since moved over to groups.io and there are over 235 members.

Now it's 2025 and I am active on five continents. I have a collection of over a hundred vintage Heidelberg drum & flatbed scanners resting comfortably in my "scanner orphanages" on two continents. I've really enjoyed my new work environment and I applaud all of you who do their part to educate the next generation on scanning one pixel at a time versus thousands or millions. Yeah, it takes more time and effort, but for me it's always fun to see the socks fly and the huge grin when examining that first scan on an install. Love it. Keep up the good work and long live analog!
-Karl

 

Attachments

  • NMS Collection 2025.jpg
    510.7 KB · Views: 48
Last edited:

wiltw

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
6,691
Location
SF Bay area
Format
Multi Format

'Lucrative' wedding photography...it hardly seems so. I was shooting weddings over 30 years ago, and the fees average little more now than they did back then...and the cost of living is considerably higher now than 30 years ago! The CPI in 1995 was about 150, in 2015 CPI was about 230, the CPI in 2025 was about 320.
 

Pieter12

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
8,164
Location
Magrathean's computer
Format
Super8
The average wedding photo shoot today costs more than we spent on the entire wedding 35 years ago. Now it is not unusual for a wedding shoot to last for a few days, with studio and location shots, the actual event, two or three photographers and video coverage.
 

wiltw

Subscriber
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
6,691
Location
SF Bay area
Format
Multi Format

And if one were to get only wedding cereremony + reception stills coverage (~12hr coverage, no video, not multi-day)?...compare apples to apples?!
 

Pieter12

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Aug 20, 2017
Messages
8,164
Location
Magrathean's computer
Format
Super8
And if one were to get only wedding cereremony + reception stills coverage (~12hr coverage, no video, not multi-day)?...compare apples to apples?!

I wouldn’t have a clue. I am commenting on the fact that the nature of wedding photography has changed. Besides I’d rather have needles poked in my eyes than be a wedding photographer.
 

alanrockwood

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
2,195
Format
Multi Format
A comment or two about photomultiplier tube technology (PMT technology): I spent a good fraction of my career dealing with photomultiplier tubes and their close relative, electron multipliers.

It's true that solid state devices have replaced PMTs in many applications because solid state devices (such as photodiodes and other solid state light sensors) have many practical advantages over PMTs. However, one thing that is not as widely known as it should be is that solid state photo sensors can't compete with PMTs in terms of signal to noise ratio for point detectors.

Also, there is a way to use photomultiplier technology to do imaging. This is to use a photocathode to generate an electron from a photon strike on the photocathode. This is then amplified using a microchannel plate type electron multiplier. There are a number of disadvantages to this technology. For example, it is not well adapted to doing color imagine, but I mention it mainly to point out that it is possible.