Why can't there be a way to print color to last?

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mercurye

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I recently saw a Pre-Raphaelite exhibition that also included Renaissance artists like Botticelli, and I started to wonder: Why is there no way to make a color process print that can live even close to the 500 years since the creation of this painting? Fuji Color Crystal Archive seems to be best, but with estimates from only 50-100 years (Fuji even claims only 100 themselves, I guess it seems long until you remember the grand scheme of things) is there ever any truly archival color process? Why hasn't UV destroyed the colors in these paintings? Yes, it has been conserved, but I have seen RA-4 prints in Museum collections that are undergoing that Magenta-cast, and those were only 40 years old! (and only allowed to be viewed for short periods of time)

Interested to hear anyone thoughts on this. Perhaps I'll stick with silver and platinum.

boticelli.jpg

Painting is Portrait of Simonetta Vespucci as Nymph by Sandro Boticelli, c 1475 (543 years old)
 
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MattKing

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Four colour carbon - but it is incredibly complex and difficult.
Todd Gangler will make four colour carbon prints for you, but IIRC his fees start at $6,000.00 USD.
 

BAC1967

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Kodak claims that you can get over 100 years with their VISION3 Color Digital Intermediate Film if it’s stored properly.

https://www.kodak.com/lk/en/motion/...gital_intermediate_film_2254_5254/default.htm

I know there is a process where you can print a photo onto ceramic tile. I don’t know how stable it is or what’s involved in the process but if it’s fired in a kiln I would think it would be stable. Just look at ancient Roman mosaics that have lasted thousands of years retaining great color. The company below claims they will last forever, it sounds like they are fired in a kiln.

https://www.artonceramic.com
 

Oren Grad

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Four colour carbon - but it is incredibly complex and difficult.

Yup:

http://www.colorcarbonprint.com/

http://thewetprint.com/en/color-carbon-transfer-prints/

The reason we can't all have permanent color prints is because we're unwilling and/or unable to pay for what's required.

Not to be snarky: it's extremely labor-intensive, and requires a fair amount of experience to do it well consistently. But if one is willing to invest the considerable time and effort needed to master the process, it is within reach of serious amateurs.
 
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BMbikerider

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I have a number of RA4 prints made in the very early 90's so they are getting on for almost 30 years old and they are as good as new. What has deteriorated are the mounts on which they were fixed to put them into frames for display on my house walls. Thoroughly bleach fixed, washing and a bath in stabiliser works for me.
One print I thought was fading was of my daughter on he graduation day, but on closer inspection it was the glass in the frame was simply covered with dust that could not be removed with a simple wipe over with a duster. Removing the glass and washing it cured that.
 
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In painting, some colors will last for eternity, and others do fade. It depends on what pigment is used to make the color. Blacks are just carbon. Browns are ground up clay. Some colors are ground up rocks and minerals like Cadmium Sulfide (yellow) and Lapis Lazuli (Ultramarine Blue). Some are laboratory-recreations of natural minerals (Ultramarine blue today is usually the synthetic version. Chemically identical but much less expensive than ground-up lapis lazuli). The colors made of clay or minerals or synthetic mineral pigments are usually ones that will last forever.

Some are made of dyes derived from plants, like Madder (a red color) or dyes made from organic chemicals, like Phthalocyanine Blue. Some of these fade fast, and others are fairly lightfast, but none are as permanent as mineral pigments.

The problem for photography is that photo color processes rely on mixing the three primary colors to make all colors that a photo can reproduce. There are no permanent mineral pigments for all three primaries. Painters don't have that limitation; they keep a large nmber of colors on hand, often as many as 15 or 20, and some professional painters have hundreds of tubes of paint in different colors! So, its easier for a painter to stick to archival colors when painting.
 

Dan Pavel

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Four colour carbon - but it is incredibly complex and difficult.
Todd Gangler will make four colour carbon prints for you, but IIRC his fees start at $6,000.00 USD.

Color (8-12 layers) Gum prints, as well, if the colorants are of high archival quality. Similarly complex and difficult to make as the Carbon prints.
 

Bob Carnie

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Color (8-12 layers) Gum prints, as well, if the colorants are of high archival quality. Similarly complex and difficult to make as the Carbon prints.
plus one, I to full colour gum prints that will last.
 

eddie

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Painters don't have that limitation; they keep a large nmber of colors on hand, often as many as 15 or 20, and some professional painters have hundreds of tubes of paint in different colors! So, its easier for a painter to stick to archival colors when painting.
You can paint your silver prints.
 
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OP...Fuji's crystal archive is good, but it is not as good as pigment based inkjets. (It is about 80% to 85% as good) Aluminum prints are good, but not quite as good as Fuji. Dye transfer prints are OK as long as they are stored in the dark. Dye transfer prints fade very fast in the light. I've tested inkjets put in the sun for a year with no noticeable fading. But Cibachromes were also very light fast.

I don't see why the best color prints would not last for centuries if stored in the dark. The beauty of digital is you can always run off a fresh color print at any time as long as the electric is on, the file is not corrupted, your print heads are not clogged and your hardware can read the file.

Below: Eastman Kodak dye transfer prints ca.1954 used in fade test from Dye Stability Testing of Color Imaging Media Edition II. Dye transfer prints will start to show notable fading in just 2 to 3 months of exposure to sunlight. But they do have good dark storage dye stability. The vintage dye transfer prints used in this test showed no noticeable fading in 65 years of dark storage.

S = Exposed to 6 months of sun. D = Stored in the dark.


dye-transfer-print-fade-test-after-6-months-of-sun-daniel-d-teoli-jr-mr.jpg
 
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While I believe the materials are no longer available since Kodak discontinued making them, dye transfer prints are said to last up to 300 years. We could be extinct by then. :sad:

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/


Nope, dye transfers were the worst media for dye stability out of all the media I tested except some oddball color paper from Freestyle. The verdict is out for dark storage when it comes to dye transfers. They hold up OK in the dark.
 
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Kodak claims that you can get over 100 years with their VISION3 Color Digital Intermediate Film if it’s stored properly.

https://www.kodak.com/lk/en/motion/...gital_intermediate_film_2254_5254/default.htm

I know there is a process where you can print a photo onto ceramic tile. I don’t know how stable it is or what’s involved in the process but if it’s fired in a kiln I would think it would be stable. Just look at ancient Roman mosaics that have lasted thousands of years retaining great color. The company below claims they will last forever, it sounds like they are fired in a kiln.

https://www.artonceramic.com

The way they would preserve color in the old days was to make color separations in BW. Kodachrome is pretty stable in the dark. I have Kodachrome going back to 1939 with good color.
 

guangong

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In painting, some colors will last for eternity, and others do fade. It depends on what pigment is used to make the color. Blacks are just carbon. Browns are ground up clay. Some colors are ground up rocks and minerals like Cadmium Sulfide (yellow) and Lapis Lazuli (Ultramarine Blue). Some are laboratory-recreations of natural minerals (Ultramarine blue today is usually the synthetic version. Chemically identical but much less expensive than ground-up lapis lazuli). The colors made of clay or minerals or synthetic mineral pigments are usually ones that will last forever.

Some are made of dyes derived from plants, like Madder (a red color) or dyes made from organic chemicals, like Phthalocyanine Blue. Some of these fade fast, and others are fairly lightfast, but none are as permanent as mineral pigments.

The problem for photography is that photo color processes rely on mixing the three primary colors to make all colors that a photo can reproduce. There are no permanent mineral pigments for all three primaries. Painters don't have that limitation; they keep a large nmber of colors on hand, often as many as 15 or 20, and some professional painters have hundreds of tubes of paint in different colors! So, its easier for a painter to stick to archival colors when painting.

All true. But now even painters can not always find stable colors. I grabbed a couple cans of artist lead white before it disappeared from store shelves. Tubes now read something like “the color of”... in very small type...Lead White. A number of permanent colors have been removed from artist paints catalogs and replaced with similar tags. More of the nanny state. Sometimes early painters, who made own paints, used ground colored glass as well as minerals. Selling paints in tubes was quite revolutionary.

I once used Marshals colors for tinting bw photos. I don’t have any idea how long colors last. Haven’t noticed any fading myself, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they haven’t faded. Maybe somebody on APUG can give more scientifically based info. I do have pictures taken in professional studio that were tinted 80 yrs ago, and they look ok but I have no idea what was used.
 
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...Why is there no way to make a color process print that can live even close to the 500 years since the creation of this painting?...
For the last 20 years, a 24x30-inch EverColor pigment print, mounted, matted and framed to 32x40-inches, has been hanging on our living room wall. Plenty of bright diffused sunlight strikes that frame every southern California day. This article


provides an overview of the process, and affords insight into reasons why there's not the slightest degradation of that image after two decades.
...The reason we can't all have permanent color prints is because we're unwilling and/or unable to pay for what's required...it's extremely labor-intensive, and requires a fair amount of experience to do it well consistently...
If memory serves (without making a trip to our safety deposit box and rummaging through receipts stored there), the cost for that print from Evercolor was between $600 and $700 in the late 1990s. The photographer, a friend, ordered it from his original transparency at my urging. His usual approach was to personally make dye transfer prints and he had not previously considered EverColor. There was no markup to us; the print price is what EverColor charged him. That EverColor went out of business not long after is validation of Oren's observation, i.e. not enough people were willing to pay the cost. Also, even at such a price, when my friend was impressed with the print and ordered another for himself, EverColor couldn't duplicate the result. No matter how technologically advanced the process was, consistency remained elusive.
 

BAC1967

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The way they would preserve color in the old days was to make color separations in BW. Kodachrome is pretty stable in the dark. I have Kodachrome going back to 1939 with good color.

I have some 8mm Kodachrome movies from 1936 that still have good color, not great color, just good. I don't know if that's just how the early Kodachrome was or if it faded a little. Storing it in the dark helps but it also needs to be cool and well vented. Acetate base will get vinegar syndrome and once that starts it won't stop. It's not just the image that needs to be stable but also the substrate that it's printed on.
 

RPC

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The problem for photography is that photo color processes rely on mixing the three primary colors to make all colors that a photo can reproduce. There are no permanent mineral pigments for all three primaries.

Color print processes use dyes, not pigments and secondary or subtractive colors (cyan, magenta, and yellow), not primary (red, green, and blue). Unfortunately the dyes used will generally fade faster than paint pigments.
 
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...It's not just the image that needs to be stable but also the substrate that it's printed on.
That's why the EverColor white polyester print base material was so appropriate.
Color print processes use dyes, not pigments...
Not all. Read post #16 and the link in it as well as those posts describing carbon prints.
 

Arklatexian

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I recently saw a Pre-Raphaelite exhibition that also included Renaissance artists like Botticelli, and I started to wonder: Why is there no way to make a color process print that can live even close to the 500 years since the creation of this painting? Fuji Color Crystal Archive seems to be best, but with estimates from only 50-100 years (Fuji even claims only 100 themselves, I guess it seems long until you remember the grand scheme of things) is there ever any truly archival color process? Why hasn't UV destroyed the colors in these paintings? Yes, it has been conserved, but I have seen RA-4 prints in Museum collections that are undergoing that Magenta-cast, and those were only 40 years old! (and only allowed to be viewed for short periods of time)

Interested to hear anyone thoughts on this. Perhaps I'll stick with silver and platinum.

View attachment 204369
Painting is Portrait of Simonetta Vespucci as Nymph by Sandro Boticelli, c 1475 (543 years old)
I distinctly remember criticisms in Apug that we shouldn't be so concerned with things like "archival" and such. It seems like 100 years is long enough in this "modern" era. When you are 87 years old like I am, 100 is not very long. More people should wake up and realize that the world did not begin the day they were born and won't end the day they die......Regards!
 

Sirius Glass

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If it was easy it would have been done long ago.
 

BAC1967

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Probably the best way to preserve an image for future generations it to have many copies in many locations. They still make prints from famous photographers, they re-master and copy movies onto different formats. Having one copy runs many risks like fire, flood or some idiot throwing it into the trash. They just lost a lot of Charles Shulz original artwork to the wildfires in California, luckily there are still many copies out there. I realize there are merits to having the original because it is the best representation of what the artist intended but that intent is diminished as the image fades, especially if it's the only copy.

Speaking of idiots throwing it into the trash, several years ago I bought some movie reels from a guy at a garage sale. He told me that he copied the movies onto VHS then spooled them off into the trash so he could sell the reels. Even though he made a copy he transferred it to a much less archival and lower quality medium and then disposed of original. I didn't have the heart to tell him how foolish that was.
 

DREW WILEY

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Lots of misleading info on this thread. First of all, lets talk about the good ole standard, Dye Transfer. Besides storage and display lighting variables, it just all depends on the specific dye combination involved, and there were lots of them. There were not only at least four different manufacturers of dye transfer supplies, and all kinds of variations to the process, but it was amenable to all kinds of custom tinkering, including dye options. Some dye transfer public installations held up under twenty years of strong light due to special dyes. So blanket statements are inherently misleading. Then Cibachrome came along, which is a somewhat more cut and dried subject. Their dyes seem to be very stable in dark storage but don't like direct sunlight or artificial UV sources. Inkjet is analogous to dye transfer because all kinds of inks are potentially involved, and some of these ink particles are basically lakes (dyed inert particles) containing some of same dyes once used in dye transfer printing. There are also various pigments involved; so again, making any kind of blanket prediction about permanence would be irresponsible and misleading. When it comes to true pigment processes like color carbon, carbro, and Fresson there's a question about the integrity of the bond between sandwiched layers. Carbro prints are especially prone to cracking and blisters; but this has been detected to some extent on all of them. So it's not only about the hypothetical permanence of individually tested pigments. The entire print has to have mechanical integrity too. Gum and related Quickprint largely fall in another category visually, while several attempts to modernize carbon like the Polaroid Permanent process, Evercolor, and Ultrastable relied on halftone techniques that visually defeated their considerable expense trying to simulate more conventional forms of prints. One of these processes was ridiculed as having " all the beauty of a plastic place mat", and did indeed resemble a laminated halftone poster. It quickly went bankrupt, but I still have token samples. Chromogenic prints have conspicuously been improved - but by how much? Now that Cibachrome is gone, I happen to work with Fuji Crystal Archive products, including their superb polyester-based product, Fuji Supergloss. I probably won't be around as long as the prints themselves, but do suspect they'll show some conspicuous yellowing in a few decades, perhaps even prior to noticeable fading per se. So there is no real silver bullet out there. Even paintings involve choices where their respective pigments are rarely created equal. And some of the treasured works of both old and modern masters are still around only because staggering amounts of time and money have been spent restoring and conserving these paintings. In other cases,
the pigments involved simply cannot be supplied on industrial scale. The grade of lapis blue which was used on the ceiling
of the Sistine Chapel, for example, is now more expensive per ounce than gold. No wonder the Popes like Leo bankrupted entire nations with their decor projects. And even he went deeply into debt.
 
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RPC

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Not all. Read post #16 and the link in it as well as those posts describing carbon prints.

I should have said some or most use dyes. I responded because the quote I responded to could have given someone the impression all color print processes use pigments and primary colors.
 

DREW WILEY

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Primary colors aren't used for any kind of full-color application. Everything traditional is some kind of CMY "process color" or CMYK (K is black), though inkjet and similar recent dye injection printers use a large number of colorants basically just like house paints, though it's imperative to choose colorants that will go through tiny nozzles - a higher priority than hypothetical optimal permanence. The key dyes for both film and color paper are CMY. But beyond that basic observation, things can get
pretty complicated and there are other threads which discuss it. Incidentally, yellow is not a primary color like kindergarten art classes claim. Green is. So many different methods for color printing have been cumulatively invented that I certainly can't recite them all. Only a few general categories have found sustained commercial viability. Some of the old ones get reinvented as clever alt processes. Everybody thinks their art deserves to last forever; but it won't, which might actually be a good thing overall. Even the current condition of the Sphinx of Egypt would probably horrify its original builders.
 
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