Sorry but exposure and development have little bearing on it as long as they're in the ballpark because it's a about the brightness relationship between sky and stuff, any change in exposure or contrast will affect both, one can of course blow out the clouds, but blue will remain gray unless something extreme happens.A lot has been said about skies and filters on this thread. Referring back to the original question. If you shoot a film with the right sensitivity and expose and develop it properly, you don't need a filter to get a darker sky with clouds. You definitely can use filters to good effect but they are not required unless you want a super dark sky.
No filters on any of these, first two Ilford Delta 100, last ADOX Silvermax. Leica M2, Summarit-M 2.3/35mm and Voigtlander Super Wide Heliar 4.5/15mm. First developed in one of my experimental PC one bath developers, second in XTOL, 3rd in my 2B-1 two bath (PQ).
View attachment 278014 View attachment 278015 View attachment 278016
Lighting here is: Ireland in June, Estonia in July, southern France in July.
Sorry but exposure and development have little bearing on it as long as they're in the ballpark because it's a about the brightness relationship between sky and stuff, any change in exposure or contrast will affect both, one can of course blow out the clouds, but blue will remain gray unless something extreme happens.
But I do agree one can get nice gray skies if they're blue and one shoots with the sun behind one's back, without filters, and I too find it hard to believe that the OP just did everything as usual and got a vastly different result. Shooting contre jour and light cloud cover are the usual reasons my skies blow out.
The problem could be everyone else’s “thin skin” or it could be your behavior?Or do I need to I say, "Pretty Please" every line. Some thin skins around here. Is there still any snow on the pass?
Take the pictures you posted. In all of them, the blue of the sky is rendered about the same tone as larger areas of stone in the buildings or the cobblestones on the ground. If you were to overexpose or overdevelop so drastically that the blue sky was gone up the shoulder irretrievably (takes quite a lot with most films), the stone would be blank white, too. That would be beyond typical pictorial processing and what I meant by something extreme happening. In these pictures, as long as the scene on the ground is rendered more or less with a full tonal range, the sky retains tone. That's what I meant.No, as you just yourself said, they have everything to do with it. If you blow out your sky (exposure tradeoff) or you increase development time to harden contrast (tradeoff) then you often lose clouds and get a white sky due to density.
Take the pictures you posted. In all of them, the blue of the sky is rendered about the same tone as larger areas of stone in the buildings or the cobblestones on the ground. If you were to overexpose or overdevelop so drastically that the blue sky was gone up the shoulder irretrievably (takes quite a lot with most films), the stone would be blank white, too. That would be beyond typical pictorial processing and what I meant by something extreme happening. In these pictures, as long as the scene on the ground is rendered more or less with a full tonal range, the sky retains tone. That's what I meant.
Then we agree. I guess I understood you differently because your pictures are not of such scenes.I think we're saying the same thing. In a high contrast scene you often have to trade off the sky for shadow detail in your exposure. Shadow which can sometimes be a large chunk of a scene. If you are losing your sky and the rest of your negative retains the detail you wanted, this was the tradeoff you made.
Shooting contre jour
Then we agree. I guess I understood you differently because your pictures are not of such scenes.
It is a long time since I heard that expression and it put a smile on my face.
I have followed this discussion and it is very interesting. It would have been nice if the OP had posted examples of the negatives in question.
I personally think that you will get blown out skies if you have a high lighting ratio in the shot and you are trying to expose for the middle. Remember a ratio of higher than 1:4 was considered Film Noir look.
Here are two of my own shots.
View attachment 278070
Bright sunshine, exposed for person, blue sky had some clouds but rendered white.
View attachment 278071
Bright slightly overcast but sunshine (note shadow on water) exposed for person. Some cloud detail.
Brian - There is ZERO, ZERO, ZERO digital work, hybrid or otherwise, in any imagery I do except for cataloging or secondary web applications. Everything on that old website was copied at faithfully as possible from actual optical prints, and the whole point is that the web is a ridiculously poor vehicle for assessing the quality or presenting the nuances of that. Very few people even owned digital cameras back then; and personal or amateur slide-scanners were themselves relatively new to the market. Am I dealing with some illiterates? Apparently so. Please try to expand your reading capacity to more than three lines. But thank you for making it so apparent which two people now belong on my Ignore List.
A bit, but certainly not just for sky tone; the façade of the building is the same tone as a lot of the sky. Looks to me like you wanted overall contrast, it would certainly have been possible to get more shadow detail and keep the sky and façade grey, had you wanted that - but I think the shadow detail is perfectly sufficient and I prefer it contrasty like that.Take a look at the third shot. This clearly trades off shadow detail.
Drew, because you asked, I drove up to the St. Mary's pass trail head (just a mile or two shy of the Sonora Pass summit) today. Hiked up to Sonora peak. There were a very few not-so-large patches of snow above 11,000 feet. Ambient temps in the low 70's. Not too many mosquitoes but some yellow jackets here and there. Beautiful weather - hazy, clear skies, some gusty winds at the peak. Stopped in at Baker station on the way down the hill and hung out with a small group of college students that I had met on the trail earlier in the day. They were doing a summer session on native edible medicinal plants. It's been a Good Day!.....Is there still any snow on the pass?
Patrick, if you don't know the dramatic distinction between viewing real REAL PRINTS, especially subtle ones, and the VERY BEST the web is capable of even today, then maybe you need to invest in a white cane. Yes, the web has improved a lot, but due to it, the "standard" and expectation of what people find acceptable and defining just keeps sinking lower and lower. I've already got current digital tools and an especially deluxe copystand setup to do web image presentation in an up to date fashion. Scanning directly from negs or chromes for sake of web image presentation in an entirely different ballgame. I've turned down free drum scanners because that's NOT the way I want to go.
As a far as I'm concerned, a photograph is never really completed until its personally printed, precisely cropped, and even mounted by me, my own specific way. Anything else is half-baked. I AM a printmaker. That IS the name of the game. With a helluva lot of work and expense, fine book presentation is potentially a distant second option. The web is still way way off behind the left field fence out in the cattle pasture, as far as I'm concerned.
But like I already stated, web presentation is a very low priority at the moment. What is important it to keep making ACTUAL prints themselves, while I still can, and getting them properly mounted. That's what will continue to define the specific look I want, and not any so-so digital substitute. If you can't accept that, then take up the debate over on the hybrid section.
People mocking me? - get real. That is an insult. Do you think I was born yesterday, and have only been doing this for six months? I had my own server, custom software, plus dedicated programming staff at my day job before I retired. Besides the quality advantages to real optical printing and darkroom workflow, do you really think that, after all of that, I'd want to spend a lot of time now fiddling with imagery sitting on my butt and punching buttons? My fingers were crippled and almost unusable with carpal tunnel syndrome when I retired; now they're almost completely normal again.
Patrick, if you don't know the dramatic distinction between viewing real REAL PRINTS, especially subtle ones, and the VERY BEST the web is capable of even today, then maybe you need to invest in a white cane. Yes, the web has improved a lot, but due to it, the "standard" and expectation of what people find acceptable and defining just keeps sinking lower and lower. I've already got current digital tools and an especially deluxe copy stand setup to do web image presentation in an up to date fashion. Scanning directly from negs or chromes for sake of web image presentation in an entirely different ballgame. I've turned down free drum scanners because that's NOT the way I want to go.
As a far as I'm concerned, a photograph is never really completed until its personally printed, precisely cropped, and even mounted by me, my own specific way. Anything else is half-baked. I AM a printmaker. That IS the name of the game. With a helluva lot of work and expense, fine book presentation is potentially a distant second option. The web is still way way off behind the left field fence out in the cattle pasture, as far as I'm concerned.
But like I already stated, web presentation is a very low priority at the moment. What is important it to keep making ACTUAL prints themselves, while I still can, and getting them properly mounted. That's what will continue to define the specific look I want, and not any so-so digital substitute. If you can't accept that, then take up the debate over on the hybrid section.
People mocking me? - get real. That is an insult. Do you think I was born yesterday, and have only been doing this for six months? I had my own server, custom software, plus dedicated programming staff at my day job before I retired. Besides the quality advantages to real optical printing and darkroom workflow, do you really think that, after all of that, I'd want to spend a lot of time now fiddling with imagery sitting on my butt and punching buttons? My fingers were crippled and almost unusable with carpal tunnel syndrome when I retired; now they're almost completely normal again.
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