Why are liquid developers packaged in HDPE?

Gerald C Koch · Mar 20, 2013

tkamiya said:
OK, but what do they mean in practical sense? If HDPE has a value of 2900 for O2, it passes 2900 cm^2/m^2.... Does that mean death to developers or is that an acceptable value? I have been storing mine in HDPE bottles and it is fine for all practical sense for over 6 months period. (so for my purpose, it's perfectly fine....)

For comparison purpose, do you have such data for Polypropylene which I did notice some color change.

For our purposes what is important is the ratio of any two values in the above table not their absolute values. Thus PET is approximately 30 times more efficient at blocking oxygen as is HDPE.

Polypropylene should be similar to polyethylene, maybe a bit better.

Dave Krueger · Mar 20, 2013

It's true that we might be splitting hairs here. Better is the enemy of good enough. If manufacturers anticipate that their products will be consumed relatively quickly, the difference in permeability between HDPE and PETE is probably not as important as other production factors.

I'm still interested in what you folks have to say about light sensitivity of developers, though. All of the liquid concentrate developers I've used came in non-brown bottles. I think Kodak did use silver plastic bottles years ago, but now they seem to use ordinary (natural) translucent HDPE. So, I'm still curious as to whether there is really any substance behind the recommendation to keep developers in brown bottles.

AgX · Mar 20, 2013

AgX said:
I have a lot of usage of 2L PET single-use bottles filled with water whilst hiking. They often fell about a 1.5m in various states of filling and never broke. There were kinks in the worst case.

What I repeatedly encountered though has been the caps breaking. Just so, not by falling.

The caps are from PE or PP and tear at the corner between the top and the threaded part where the rim of the bottle hits the top of the cap. Most probably due to excessive force.
I have found caps with varying thicknesses at this part.

Mark Fisher · Mar 20, 2013

Also, for some developers, it simply doesn't matter. Rodinal is packed in HDPE and it gets plenty brown in the container...likely oxidizing yet it works great. I'm sure when chemical manufacturers are looking at their bottle choice they consider compatibility (O2 ingress, chemical compatibility) vs shelf life. If HDPE works and they are looking for a 2 year shelf life, they'll use the HDPE and save a dime a bottle.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 20, 2013

Dave Krueger said:
I'm still interested in what you folks have to say about light sensitivity of developers, though. All of the liquid concentrate developers I've used came in non-brown bottles. I think Kodak did use silver plastic bottles years ago, but now they seem to use ordinary (natural) translucent HDPE. So, I'm still curious as to whether there is really any substance behind the recommendation to keep developers in brown bottles.

Rather than light sensitivity I think it was the bottom line in that brown glass bottles were cheaper than colorless ones. The brown coloration is caused by an iron impurity in the glass. Colorless glass is more expensive because the iron must be removed.

Dave Krueger · Mar 20, 2013

Thanks, Jerry. I've been using dark bottles, but really would prefer to use clear.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 22, 2013

A further observation concerning the relative costs of HDPE and PETE. This afternoon I was feeding bottles into the machine at a recycle center and noticed a sign concerning its bulk option. The center pays $0.60 per pound for HDPE and $1.07 per pound for PETE.

martellsv · Dec 15, 2013

my personal test

I have a plastic bottle i think is pet bot hdpe, when i fill it with biling degassed water ph drop from 7.3 to 8.7, if i fill it at room temperature ph remains equal 7.3, i read that max temperature usable is 60ºC. thanks but i don't know where is the problem

marciofs · Dec 15, 2013

I bought yesterday this bear because of the cap and brown bottle:

I will store my chemicals in it.

pentaxuser · Dec 15, 2013

marciofs said:
I bought yesterday this bear because of the cap and brown bottle:

View attachment 78487

I will store my chemicals in it.

At the OktoberFest does that bottle come in Kodiak size? It's the biggest bear I know of in a shade of brown The Kodak bear used to be the biggest but it has since shrunk. It is said to be due to its sudden shortsightedness and inability to recognise where its real food was

pentaxuser

martellsv · Dec 15, 2013

Polyethylene terphthalate developer

Then i've got my own Polyethylene terphthalate developer ...

Truzi · Dec 15, 2013

Marco, I have purchased a couple similar bottles for developers.

marciofs · Dec 16, 2013

This bottle I bought is only 500ml which is what I usually use since I always develop 1 roll of 120 or 2 rolls of 35mm.

I have found 2l glass bottle with this type of cap but transparent bottle. If I use it I will paint the bottle.

Truzi · Dec 16, 2013

You shouldn't have to paint the bottles. Just keep them in a dark cupboard or box.

ath · Dec 16, 2013

In Germany you can get cheap but good brown glass bottles in many sizes at every pharmacy. No need to risk accidents by putting photo chemicals in food containers.

David Lyga · Dec 16, 2013

I have used PET plastic for years and years for both B&W and color developers (and all the other chemicals). I have had NO deleterious effects ever as long as the bottle is filled TO THE VERY RIM. (And I do not worry about keeping them in the dark even though they are clear.)

This 'filled to the rim' caveat is the annoying part because I have to use glass marbles to take up the slack. However, there are some PET plastics that can be slightly squeezed, such as Pepsi soda bottles that are long and narrow and have largely clear sides without indentations. But these are usually about 500ml. How I would like smaller bottles that could be likewise squeezed as it is a hassle to keep adding those marbles. For very small quantities, I use 50ml liquor bottles but, again, marbles (tiny ones from arts and crafts stores) are needed. - David Lyga

AgX · Dec 16, 2013

marciofs said:
I bought yesterday this bear because of the cap and brown bottle:

View attachment 78487

I will store my chemicals in it.

This is at least considered dangerous lab practice in Germany.
So be aware what you are doing and who in any case might get access to such a bottle. Being a commercial photographer higher demands on your safety practice will be put on you in case of an accident.

gone · Dec 17, 2013

If you use common sense, there are no safety issues. Tape a piece of paper over the beer label (or simply scratch it off), use a permanent marker to make a crude skull w/ an X through it, and write POISON. CONTAINS (name of developer here) PHOTOGRAPHIC DEVELOPER. Perfectly safe. I now have the answer to my earlier post about whether to use plastic or glass bottles to store my developer in. Glass it is. Keep it simple. Thank you Agx and others.

While I'm no chemist, eons ago I used to work for O.S.H.A., and was involved in gathering information to present to Congress to have the P.E.L. standards (permissible exposure limits to toxic and hazardous materials in the workplace) updated and improved. If people only knew what goes on in businesses and hospitals! You'd be sure that people would be dropping like flies from some of the stuff I was told. But by and large, they don't. Over and over again I saw that solutions like Agx's were prevalent in the places w/ the best safety records, and that the "old ways" were generally the best. Maybe not the most convenient, maybe not the cheapest, but the best. As for breakage, wrap the bottle w/ a sheet of thin closed cell foam before putting your poison label on, and/or lay down a thick rubber mat where you use the stuff. Easier on your feet too.

AgX · Dec 17, 2013

There are people, small people, that cannot read.

And yes, I know a lab in the industry that uses beverage bottles for storing chemistries. But this is a very, very secluded premises.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 17, 2013

high-qualityHDPE bottles are made from multi-layeredinjection-moldedblans to minimize permiability.that's how plastic fuel containers are manufactured.

timor · Dec 17, 2013

AgX said:
There are people, small people, that cannot read.

And yes, I know a lab in the industry that uses beverage bottles for storing chemistries. But this is a very, very secluded premises.

Small people that cannot read drinking beer ? I guess it's an early start for the national tradition.
We may lough, but you are so right. Common sense for many hobbies, not only photography rather requires, that stuff which is used is clearly separated and even locked away from all members of ones household. Stupid accidents just happens. Time to time.

Truzi · Dec 17, 2013

If the small person cannot read, there is no reason to assume they will NOT drink a substance that is in a "proper" bottle for that substance. No reason to think they won't drink furniture polish, window cleaner, etc. Hell, there is no reason to think they'd not drink beer/wine/liquor even if they are not allowed and know full-well what it is.

marciofs · Dec 20, 2013

AgX said:
This is at least considered dangerous lab practice in Germany.
So be aware what you are doing and who in any case might get access to such a bottle. Being a commercial photographer higher demands on your safety practice will be put on you in case of an accident.

There is no danger at all.

I label all my bottles not only to let others know it is not bear but also to let me know what chemicals is in each bottle.

I also used tape around the bottle so in case it crashs the tape will hold the glass pieces and chemicals in.

And if a child were looking for something to drink they would find many other things good and bad to drink before find my chemicals.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 20, 2013

marciofs said:
There is no danger at all.

I label all my bottles not only to let others know it is not bear but also to let me know what chemicals is in each bottle.

I also used tape around the bottle so in case it crashs the tape will hold the glass pieces and chemicals in.

And if a child were looking for something to drink they would find many other things good and bad to drink before find my chemicals.

no chemicals in food bottles or in what could be mistaken as food bottles is a common-sense safety precaution, and I recommend aswell as practice it in my darkroom. rvrrything else is short-sided and might be regreted.:confused:

RalphLambrecht · Dec 20, 2013

AgX said:
This is at least considered dangerous lab practice in Germany.
So be aware what you are doing and who in any case might get access to such a bottle. Being a commercial photographer higher demands on your safety practice will be put on you in case of an accident.

fully agree. no food or food containers in the darkroom is a 'zero-cost' health insurance. why take the risc? grand children are hard to come by. a Dektol soda could make you seriously unpopular within the family.

Why are liquid developers packaged in HDPE?

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