Who makes AgfaPhoto APX new emulsion

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 15, 2020

relistan said:
@Witold To follow up on some of your questions that nobody answered fully:

ORWO is coated by Inoviscoat in Germany, on German-made triacetate base. I do not know where it is finished or packaged but I understand that ORWO retained slicing and perforating equipment for motion picture film sizes along with the emulsion design/production facility in Wolfen. Having ORWO stock in hand and being very familiar with Foma products, it is clear that there is no connection between ORWO and Foma for current film manufacturing.

As for modern APX-100, it has nothing to do with the old stock, as you mentioned. It's coated by Harman as far as we all know. It appears to be the same emulsion as Kentmere. It is reported that RPX 100/400 are custom emulsions. They might be. If they are, they're nearly the same as Kentmere.

Hope it helps.

Great, pretty much what I was unscientifically suspecting myself on ORWO. I just got some original APX 100 in 4x5 sheets, so no need to think of Kentmere packaged as APX.

The more I think about it the more turned off I get with these brands twisted around (Agfa - AgfaPhoto) to make them look like they mean what they used to and in this case getting Kentmere would be probably what I'd get just to remain truer to reality.

relistan · Nov 15, 2020

Witold said:
The more I think about it the more turned off I get with these brands twisted around (Agfa - AgfaPhoto) to make them look like they mean what they used to and in this case getting Kentmere would be probably what I'd get just to remain truer to reality.

APX-100 (Harman edition) is cheap from Fotoimpex ~€51 for 100ft and I bet shipping is low to you in Poland. I'd probably just do that if I were looking for that emulsion.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 15, 2020

relistan said:
APX-100 (Harman edition) is cheap from Fotoimpex ~€51 for 100ft and I bet shipping is low to you in Poland. I'd probably just do that if I were looking for that emulsion.

Yeah, I started using Fotoimpex just this week. Shipment seems flat 10 EUR and I saw that bulk APX, hence my asking about it here. On bulk film I want to focus on ORWO for the time being and some old odd stuff for side fun.

Lachlan Young · Nov 15, 2020

relistan said:
ORWO is coated by Inoviscoat in Germany, on German-made triacetate base. I do not know where it is finished or packaged but I understand that ORWO retained slicing and perforating equipment for motion picture film sizes along with the emulsion design/production facility in Wolfen.

Good to get confirmation on the Inoviscoat connection - UN54 looked suspiciously like an Agfapan 100 derivative, and with distinct sensitometric/ colour sensitivity differences from Foma, but I was also aware of Filmotec/ Orwo having collaborated in the past with other coating facilities to manufacture materials from the Orwo formula book (something like Adox Pan 25 I think?) & coated on older eastern European plant (Forte?).

On that basis, it would seem reasonable to suggest that Orwo UN54 = 'real' Agfapan 100 or close derivative; Orwo N75 = the modified Agfapan 400 that was worked up to be more like Kodak 400TX (similar to/ same as Bergger Pancro 400?); Orwo N74, the old Agfapan 400?

The TAC base is almost certainly made at the old Wolfen TAC plant who supply most (all?) of the European film coaters & Kodak.

relistan · Nov 15, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
On that basis, it would seem reasonable to suggest that Orwo UN54 = 'real' Agfapan 100 or close derivative; Orwo N75 = the modified Agfapan 400 that was worked up to be more like Kodak 400TX (similar to/ same as Bergger Pancro 400?); Orwo N74, the old Agfapan 400?

I don't think so, but I don't know. What Filmotec retained in Wolfen includes emulsion research and formulation. The grain in the modern ORWO films is a lot more pronounced than the old Agfa films. N75 has a pretty pronounced grain (I have 100 feet of it here).

Lachlan Young said:
The TAC base is almost certainly made at the old Wolfen TAC plant who supply most (all?) of the European film coaters & Kodak.

Yes, that's my understanding also.

AgX · Nov 15, 2020

Witold said:
The more I think about it the more turned off I get with these brands twisted around (Agfa - AgfaPhoto) to make them look like they mean what they used to and in this case getting Kentmere would be probably what I'd get just to remain truer to reality.

We still do not know the full story behind the sale and later demise of the consumer department of Agfa. The term "AgfaPhoto" though is older than that. It was a designation for that department in evolving internet times. At the sale the new esatablished entity got that name as well as the orange dot, as alternative to the original orange rhomb. The orange dot can be traced back into the 60's though. With the demise of all production facilities of that enterprise only the respective hull, tge holding remaine, with as only assets some intellectual property and the right to use as licensee the term Agfaphot.
The following development was not to the like of Agfa,. But whether they are still botherd is questionable, as even the original brand "Agfa" lost its value at the wide public. And their industrial/institutional customers are hardly bothered what AgfaPhoto does with sub-licencesing "their" brand. And they hardly can do forever by diminishing interest.

Lachlan Young · Nov 15, 2020

relistan said:
I don't think so, but I don't know. What Filmotec retained in Wolfen includes emulsion research and formulation. The grain in the modern ORWO films is a lot more pronounced than the old Agfa films. N75 has a pretty pronounced grain (I have 100 feet of it here).

It's certainly the case that the RMS Grain spec of Orwo's camera films are considerably worse than the old APX 100/400 spec's - however, Orwo (who can definitely measure RMS Grain) are using D-96 as a reference developer, whereas the Agfa spec was for Refinal (a PQ D-76 derivative - unknown how closely it traveled to Microphen) - both at gamma 0.65 (for these purposes it equates to the ISO CI of 0.6) - and Kodak spec an RMSG of 17 for current 400TX in HC-110. Make of that what you will! All that said and done, it's the characteristic curve and the spectral sensitivity which tend to be the greater giveaways as to whose emulsions/ sensitiser families are actually in use. I'm not entirely sure how much above research scale that Orwo can produce emulsion to. It may be that they specified a preference for a higher MTF sharpness - as opposed to reduced granularity - but I also recall reading that the reason no BW T-grain cinema camera neg films appeared was because under the specific circumstances of cinema camera use, the T-grain emulsions offered no granularity benefits.

JPD · Nov 15, 2020

AgX said:
Yoi are nearby. When there is a chance to travel again, go and visit the Orwo museum in Wolfen. Aside of the Filmotec building some buildings even from Agfa times still exist, as the current Wolfen city-hall.

Is it the building with the half-circle front? I remember reading years ago that it was being renovated. Nice that a beautiful building like that has been preserved and in good use.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 15, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
It's certainly the case that the RMS Grain spec of Orwo's camera films are considerably worse than the old APX 100/400 spec's - however, Orwo (who can definitely measure RMS Grain) are using D-96 as a reference developer, whereas the Agfa spec was for Refinal (a PQ D-76 derivative - unknown how closely it traveled to Microphen) - both at gamma 0.65 (for these purposes it equates to the ISO CI of 0.6) - and Kodak spec an RMSG of 17 for current 400TX in HC-110. Make of that what you will! All that said and done, it's the characteristic curve and the spectral sensitivity which tend to be the greater giveaways as to whose emulsions/ sensitiser families are actually in use. I'm not entirely sure how much above research scale that Orwo can produce emulsion to. It may be that they specified a preference for a higher MTF sharpness - as opposed to reduced granularity - but I also recall reading that the reason no BW T-grain cinema camera neg films appeared was because under the specific circumstances of cinema camera use, the T-grain emulsions offered no granularity benefits.

Here it's written that Orwo is owned by FiloTec GmbH.
http://www.cp-news.de/aktuell/aus-d...e-produzent-von-schwarz-weiss-kinefilmen.html

Lachlan Young · Nov 15, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Here it's written that Orwo is owned by FiloTec GmbH.
http://www.cp-news.de/aktuell/aus-d...e-produzent-von-schwarz-weiss-kinefilmen.html

I don't think anyone here is denying that 'Orwo' is a brand of Filmotec - and has been since it emerged out of the collapse of Orwo as a unitary company in the mid-90's

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 15, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
I don't think anyone here is denying that 'Orwo' is a brand of Filmotec - and has been since it emerged out of the collapse of Orwo as a unitary company in the mid-90's

They were speculating who is manufacturing the Orwo films lineup.
Foma or Filmotec?
I think the answer is obvious...

AgX · Nov 15, 2020

JPD said:
Is it the building with the half-circle front? I remember reading years ago that it was being renovated. Nice that a beautiful building like that has been preserved and in good use.

Yes, that was the administration of the plant and also housing the R&D labs and the auditorium. As you see, that building is more modern in style than the parts built in 1909.

relistan · Nov 15, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
They were speculating who is manufacturing the Orwo films lineup.
Foma or Filmotec?
I think the answer is obvious...

No, they were speculating about who coats it. Filmotec own the ORWO brand, they formulate emulsions, and they slit and package film AFAIK. But they don't own a coating facility. It's coated at Inoviscoat on ex-Agfa Leverkusen equipment.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 15, 2020

relistan said:
No, they were speculating about who coats it. Filmotec own the ORWO brand, they formulate emulsions, and they slit and package film AFAIK. But they don't own a coating facility. It's coated at Inoviscoat on ex-Agfa Leverkusen equipment.

Got it, with all these names involved I got lost...

Lachlan Young · Nov 15, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
They were speculating who is manufacturing the Orwo films lineup.
Foma or Filmotec?
I think the answer is obvious...

It was the question of who was tollcoating the cinema neg material & the extent to which it was a Filmotec/ Orwo recipe, or something Agfa/ Inoviscoat derived - Filmotec don't have any production coating ability on their site in Wolfen. Inoviscoat (and Agfa before them) seem to have manufactured and coated master rolls for Filmotec to convert since at least 2001. The spectral sensitivity and characteristic curves are remarkably close to certain well-known Agfa-Gevaert/ Inoviscoat still film emulsions.

Elsewhere however, Filmotec seem to have been involved in making both a version of ORT 25 and Adox Pan 25 - from Adox's account, it involved the emulsion made on one site, the coating elsewhere, and the slitting/ confectioning on a third - the question which was unclear was the nature of the coating partner - I'd suspect that if it was an old Orwo derived emulsion, it would have been considerably more straightforward to coat on a machine technologically closer to those used at Orwo (thus Foma/ Forte/ Fotokemika would be more likely), than on a much more sophisticated system (Inoviscoat/ Harman etc) - and if you were going to go to Inoviscoat, you might as well have had them manufacture the emulsion too. There was another related story at the time, which I recall supposedly involved an old Agfa emulsion being made in Mortsel (?), shipped to Fotokemika for coating, then converted in Germany (Retro 100 Tonal or something like that) - though there seem to be a number of holes in that tale.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 15, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
There was another related story at the time, which I recall involved an old Agfa emulsion being made in Mortsel (?), shipped to Fotokemika for coating, then converted in Germany (Retro 100 Tonal or something like that).

Tell me more of the Rollei Retro Tonal 100. I've got some to shoot and I have one actually loaded in my Nikon F90X...

Lachlan Young · Nov 15, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Tell me more of the Rollei Retro Tonal 100. I've got some to shoot and I have one actually loaded in my Nikon F90X...

As with a lot of Maco related materials, there's a lot of murkiness and not a lot of clarity of who did what where - here's the official data sheet - and the more I try to understand what went on, the less clear it seems to get. I wouldn't be enormously surprised if it was actually an Agfa material from another related field - duplicating/ cinema lab film or similar, sensitised to start dropping off from about 590nm (the spectral sensitivity seems familiar and I cannot put my finger on what material it seems like - other than that I swear I've seen it it in other Agfa data for technical materials) - and actually coated at Mortsel, before being cut and packaged at Fotokemika etc. Or something along a range of truth values between that and an almost entirely Fotokemika produced product with different spectral sensitivity.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 15, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
As with a lot of Maco related materials, there's a lot of murkiness and not a lot of clarity of who did what where - here's the official data sheet - and the more I try to understand what went on, the less clear it seems to get. I wouldn't be enormously surprised if it was actually an Agfa material from another related field - duplicating/ cinema lab film or similar, sensitised to start dropping off from about 590nm (the spectral sensitivity seems familiar and I cannot put my finger on what material it seems like - other than that I swear I've seen it it in other Agfa data for technical materials) - and actually coated at Mortsel, before being cut and packaged at Fotokemika etc.

I've tried it in the Foma reversal kit but the slides came out very muddy with a very weak Dmax. Probably the film I've got is too foggy to be reversed. Quite expired too.

Lachlan Young · Nov 15, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
I've tried it in the Foma reversal kit but the slides came out very muddy with a very weak Dmax. Probably the film I've got is too foggy to be reversed. Quite expired too.

From what I recall, Fotokemika stuff tended to go pretty foggy quite fast. Sadly I got plagued with late era Efke films that quite clearly showed that their emulsion melts were getting more and more problematic (due to failing plant) - which is a pity as I liked the tonality.

halfaman · Nov 16, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
but I also recall reading that the reason no BW T-grain cinema camera neg films appeared was because under the specific circumstances of cinema camera use, the T-grain emulsions offered no granularity benefits.

Granularity in motion picture is said to be less obvious than in still photography. I suppose that it is more difficult for our eyes to retain a random pattern like granularity when it is changing every 1/24th of a second.

Film-Niko · Nov 18, 2020

Witold said:
Is there a consensus on who makes Agfa APX emulsions as we see them now? Is it a different formula from the current maker, or is it rebadged something else known otherwise as ????

Yes, there is a consensus by those who have tested the current APX films correctly (sensitometric tests = characteristic curve, resolution, sharpness and grain tests). And who have also tested them the same way in comparison to these films which could be similar or identical.
I have done these tests, other photographers I have talked to as well. And you will also find such test results here on photrio.
The current AgfaPhoto APX films are from the Kentmere production, therefore identical to Kentmere 100 and 400. You may find some minor, negligible differences caused by batch-to-batch variation, which is generally more often happening with these low-budget films compared to more expensive films. You get what you pay for.
Fotoimpex CHM 100 and 400, Oriental Seagull 100 and 400, and Rollei RPX 100 and 400 are also rebranded Kentmere 100 / 400 films.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 18, 2020

Film-Niko said:
Yes, there is a consensus by those who have tested the current APX films correctly (sensitometric tests = characteristic curve, resolution, sharpness and grain tests). And who have also tested them the same way in comparison to these films which could be similar or identical.
I have done these tests, other photographers I have talked to as well. And you will also find such test results here on photrio.
The current AgfaPhoto APX films are from the Kentmere production, therefore identical to Kentmere 100 and 400. You may find some minor, negligible differences caused by batch-to-batch variation, which is generally more often happening with these low-budget films compared to more expensive films. You get what you pay for.
Fotoimpex CHM 100 and 400, Oriental Seagull 100 and 400, and Rollei RPX 100 and 400 are also rebranded Kentmere 100 / 400 films.

Which is cheaper?
Ilford Kentmere 100, Agfa Apx 100 new or Rollei Rpx 100?

Film-Niko · Nov 18, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Which is cheaper?
Ilford Kentmere 100, Agfa Apx 100 new or Rollei Rpx 100?

Depends on the country, and the shop you are using. In my region / at my stores the Kentmeres have been the cheapest.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 18, 2020

Film-Niko said:
Depends on the country, and the shop you are using. In my region / at my stores the Kentmeres have been the cheapest.

I suspected it, and so be it Ilford!

MattKing · Nov 18, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
I suspected it, and so be it Ilford!

Well, actually Harman, and their brand name Kentmere..
Which may appear to be too technical, but Harman did actually buy the brand name of Ilford from the former Ilford's receiver.
Just as Harman bought the business of Kentmere.
And Harman is actively engaged in producing all sorts of non-Ilford branded product.
I usually don't bother differentiating when it comes to Ilford products themselves, but given the subject of this thread I think that every bit of clarity helps.

Who makes AgfaPhoto APX new emulsion

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