Who makes AgfaPhoto APX new emulsion

Arcadia4 · Nov 14, 2020

Of these 2 only Inoviscoat actually coat film in germany - using ex Agfa Leverkusen kit owning both test and production coaters.
Adox- own an Agfa production coater but havent finished installing it, plus a small test coater. They also have use of the former Ilford imaging marly plant in switz - medium scale line, which has been used for testing.

Arcadia4 · Nov 14, 2020

Whoever wins the toll contact ..Potentially Harman, Foma or Inoviscoat could in theory coat it. I have seen suggestions of both Harman and Foma. Its worth noting that different manufactures may coat and convert/package - this is not uncommon including with some of the Rollei offereing. Historically Forte did the coating. There are people on here who will know but probably cant say!

Lachlan Young · Nov 14, 2020

@Arcadia4 The Swiss ex-Ilford test plant has been converted by Adox for production quality coatings - I think it's now producing some product (possibly CHS II and Lupex). Not sure how advanced the larger scale Bad Saarow machine is towards making its first coatings - I'd imagine it'll be prioritised for paper coating (MCC etc).

I'm pretty certain that the 'new' APX films are Kentmere or close variant thereof - I think (in terms of aspects of making and coating technology) that Foma is considerably less technologically advanced than Adox/ Inoviscoat/ Harman. Then there's the question of how much of a product has to be manufactured/ assembled in a particular place to qualify for 'Made in ...' - a great deal of Leica's subassemblies are made in Portugal for example (and some full lens assembly these days too).

Arcadia4 · Nov 14, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
I'm pretty certain that the 'new' APX films are Kentmere or close variant thereof -

Yes see post #4. We then moved onto OrWo

Arcadia4 · Nov 14, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
@Arcadia4 The Swiss ex-Ilford test plant has been converted by Adox for production quality coatings - I think it's now producing some product (possibly CHS II and Lupex). Not sure how advanced the larger scale Bad Saarow machine is towards making its first coatings - I'd imagine it'll be prioritised for paper coating (MCC etc).

Yes its been modified for production with revised driers etc . A previous discussion indicated that CHS was tested but not production coated on it. I guess the Swiss franc may be a limiting factor and reason for the development of a domestic facility. You are correct that ‘Made in’ labelling may be misleading as to where the coating was done particularly as multiple parties may actually be involved in the end product.

miha · Nov 14, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
I think (in terms of aspects of making and coating technology) that Foma is considerably less technologically advanced than Adox/ Inoviscoat/ Harman.

I think you are wrong here. Foma coats several different films and photo papers as well as x-ray material. They have been with us for a long time (there is a book on their history available via their web shop that I highly recommend) Harman is ahead no doubt about it but Adox? MCC and MCP was not coated by them, this we know.

Lachlan Young · Nov 14, 2020

@Arcadia4 I think that a production run has been made on one or other of the plants of both CHS II and Lupex, going by what Adox have said - they have also stated that MCC is under test at Bad Saarow currently, pending successful tests that'll allow it to be run in Switzerland, allowing for Covid restrictions.

Foma seems most likely to be the current coating partner of Filmotec for Orwo - at least if the current Orwo camera neg films share common heritage with old Orwo recipes - as both the old Forte plant and current Foma plant probably had/ have quite similar coating setups to the Orwo plant.

AgX · Nov 14, 2020

miha said:
Harman is ahead [of Foma] no doubt about it but Adox? MCC and MCP was not coated by them, this we know.

Back then Adox had no production coating facilities at all.

Lachlan Young · Nov 14, 2020

miha said:
I think you are wrong here. Foma coats several different films and photo papers as well as x-ray material. They have been with us for a long time (there is a book on their history available via their web shop that I highly recommend) Harman is ahead no doubt about it but Adox? MCC and MCP was not coated by them, this we know.

Adox have multilayer coating technology (at least 6-layer and 3-layer heads at the current time - and you can do multi-pass with those) and emulsion plant that's from Ilford Switzerland - along with ex-Agfa 1990's coating plant and know-how. The new Polywarmtone seems to need the ability to make, blend and coat 2 emulsion layers from 4 modern highly controlled emulsion makes + supercoat. I'm not sure whether Foma can coat more than a layer + supercoat at a time, or if they are still dip coating, or have slot-die or slide coating. The fact that all pictures of the Foma machine suggest it's still got a festoon drier (gone by the 70's in most western plants) suggest that it's probably not slide/ waterfall coating capable. Making paper, older technology BW film, X-ray film etc do not necessarily need the most high tech coating technology to make good products. But they will have more limitations in terms of paper grade range (especially in warmer toned emulsions), absolute film speed/ grain character etc.

miha · Nov 14, 2020

I agree, however one thing is to have the coating technology available and the other one is to have the know-how. Foma offers various papers readily available for purchase, Adox do not. Fingers crossed they bring their Poly papers back in a timely manner (same for mcc).

miha · Nov 14, 2020

AgX said:
Back then Adox had no production coating facilities at all.

But Foma Bohemia had.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 14, 2020

I seriously doubt Foma has any collaboration with ORWO, ORWO appears so entirely different in every aspect of the product, I can't see how running that in Foma facility would make any sense.

Lachlan Young · Nov 14, 2020

Witold said:
I seriously doubt Foma has any collaboration with ORWO, ORWO appears so entirely different in every aspect of the product, I can't see how running that in Foma facility would make any sense.

The specifications of the materials seemed pretty similar to some of Foma's products - and for various (obvious & historical) reasons it seems that Foma has had strong technological linkages to Orwo - and if a material was coated in the past on a similar type of older machine at Orwo, transitioning it to Forte or Foma's plants (or Efke for that matter) would have been a lot simpler than making/ coating at Mobberley etc (where a total reformulation would probably have been necessary). That said, the new(ish) Orwo N75 seems to have some more Agfa-Gevaert like characteristics, which suggests it may be based off similar emulsions to Bergger Pancro 400 and be made/ coated by Inoviscoat.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 14, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
The specifications of the materials seem pretty similar - and for various (obvious & historical) reasons it seems that Foma has had strong technological linkages to Orwo - and if a material was coated in the past on a similar type of older machine at Orwo, transitioning it to Forte or Foma's plants (or Efke for that matter) would have been a lot simpler than making/ coating at Mobberley etc (where a total reformulation would probably have been necessary).

I think you may be trying to connect the three as being part of the "other" world behind iron curtain. I don't know how that went in this case as in Poland we had own manufacturing with eventually quite good quality, sadly all history of many years now. ORWO products were made in German factory back than, but my point abut current products is that ORWO film is not even close to Foma in any way. Hence, I don't believe Foma has any relation to Filmotec production. As ORWO is sold in bulk only it's perhaps not as widely used as ready made Foma, looking at what I get in the end, I would not consider Foma if I had ORWO available.

miha · Nov 14, 2020

@Witold: Yugoslavia and thus Fotokemika was never behing the Iron curtain.

Lachlan Young · Nov 14, 2020

Witold said:
I think you may be trying to connect the three as being part of the "other" world behind iron curtain. I don't know how that went in this case as in Poland we had own manufacturing with eventually quite good quality, sadly all history of many years now. ORWO products were made in German factory back than, but my point abut current products is that ORWO film is not even close to Foma in any way. Hence, I don't believe Foma has any relation to Filmotec production. As ORWO is sold in bulk only it's perhaps not as widely used as ready made Foma, looking at what I get in the end, I would not consider Foma if I had ORWO available.

Only in the sense of technological limits - even seemingly little things like the type of hardeners used in modern pre-coating steps can demand total reformulation of the emulsion, whereas if the common limits of your technology are roughly similar coating/ drying setups, it's a lot easier to move coating plant - as opposed to going to Inoviscoat or Harman, where you'd likely be better off seeing if one of their extant recipes can be modified to fit your needs.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 14, 2020

miha said:
@Witold: Yugoslavia and thus Fotokemika was never behing the Iron curtain.

Never meant to suggest, point was about Forte and Foma + Orwo. As for for Yugoslavia it was a creation of an entirely different sort but I have never met Tito so I'll stop here.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 14, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Only in the sense of technological limits - even seemingly little things like the type of hardeners used in modern pre-coating steps can demand total reformulation of the emulsion, whereas if the common limits of your technology are roughly similar coating/ drying setups, it's a lot easier to move coating plant - as opposed to going to Inoviscoat or Harman, where you'd likely be better off seeing if one of their extant recipes can be modified to fit your needs.

I admit I have very limited insight into film production and basically comment on what I see and feel. So I was strictly referring to current ORWO and Foma products and on the table comparison. This is no proof of course that Foma is not in bed with Filmotec.

DeletedAcct1 · Nov 14, 2020

Witold said:
as in Poland we had own manufacturing with eventually quite good quality

Foton, isn't it?

Lachlan Young · Nov 14, 2020

miha said:
I agree, however one thing is to have the coating technology available and the other one is to have the know-how. Foma offers various papers readily available for purchase, Adox do not. Fingers crossed they bring their Poly papers back in a timely manner (same for mcc).

I think people are severely underestimating the scale of the Polywarmtone re-formulation (because that's what it essentially seems to have been) - in the pre-digital world it could have taken 3-5 years as a full time job for a dedicated research team - it seems they've had to innovate quite a lot & build up a complex multigrade paper emulsion set/ layer structure in order to both preserve the tonality of Polywarmtone, but also make it a properly competitive first-rate paper on the market today.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Nov 14, 2020

I'm still confused by the mergers and partnership between companies east of the Rhine, but one thing I can guarantee is that Rollei RPX 100 is nothing at all like the real Agfa APX 100 I used to shoot in the early 2000s.

For a moment, Rollei Retro 100 (the one you could buy in wooden boxes) was the good stuff, but right now it's not.

AgX · Nov 14, 2020

Witold said:
Never meant to suggest, point was about Forte and Foma + Orwo. As for for Yugoslavia it was a creation of an entirely different sort but I have never met Tito so I'll stop here.

In case one wants to include Yugolavia, use the term "socialist states".

miha · Nov 15, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
I think people are severely underestimating the scale of the Polywarmtone re-formulation (because that's what it essentially seems to have been) - in the pre-digital world it could have taken 3-5 years as a full time job for a dedicated research team - it seems they've had to innovate quite a lot & build up a complex multigrade paper emulsion set/ layer structure in order to both preserve the tonality of Polywarmtone, but also make it a properly competitive first-rate paper on the market today.

Some of the tedious steps are described here: http://www.polywarmtone.com/

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 15, 2020

miha said:
Some of the tedious steps are described here: http://www.polywarmtone.com/

Thanks for the link, great read and it appears ADOX is committed enough. If they could only convince one of those nastily rich to throw in some cash without asking for return. Perhaps someone knows Bezos' girlfriend and get the cash through the back door? Just throwing out an idea.

relistan · Nov 15, 2020

@Witold To follow up on some of your questions that nobody answered fully:

ORWO is coated by Inoviscoat in Germany, on German-made triacetate base. I do not know where it is finished or packaged but I understand that ORWO retained slicing and perforating equipment for motion picture film sizes along with the emulsion design/production facility in Wolfen. Having ORWO stock in hand and being very familiar with Foma products, it is clear that there is no connection between ORWO and Foma for current film manufacturing.

As for modern APX-100, it has nothing to do with the old stock, as you mentioned. It's coated by Harman as far as we all know. It appears to be the same emulsion as Kentmere. It is reported that RPX 100/400 are custom emulsions. They might be. If they are, they're nearly the same as Kentmere.

Hope it helps.

Who makes AgfaPhoto APX new emulsion

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