Who is actually making new formulas? What have you made!?

grainyvision · Jan 14, 2021

I'm curious who out there (other than me) is creating new formulas for film and paper work. That includes developers, fixers, toners, even alt process stuff is interesting. I've not found many new formulas made in the past 10 years and wondering if formulation is just not interesting for people, or if there's a ton of hidden gems out there. So pitch what you've made and why it's worth trying out! Doesn't necessarily even have to be a brand new formula, could just be a moderately modified formula that suits your needs better. (only thing not that interesting is like, adding 1g extra bromide to Ansco 130 or something)

Tom Kershaw · Jan 14, 2021

I did some experimentation with cold toner paper developer formula a few years ago and came to the conclusion that some of the controls advocated in texts are not that effective with modern papers; standard D-72 seems like a good choice for a cold to neutral tone results.

grainyvision · Jan 14, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
I did some experimentation with cold toner paper developer formula a few years ago and came to the conclusion that some of the controls advocated in texts are not that effective with modern papers; standard D-72 seems like a good choice for a cold to neutral tone results.

Yes, I've had the same issue, except with warm tones. This is part of why I'm interested in new formulas. The formulas of old do not work on modern materials like they did with the legacy stuff. I'm not sure what changed exactly, but it's a fairly big difference. The only modern paper that I can get good results from with some of those older developers is Fomatone Warmtone Classic FB, which is great, but I never want to be limited to a single paper type.

Tom Kershaw · Jan 14, 2021

earlz said:
Yes, I've had the same issue, except with warm tones. This is part of why I'm interested in new formulas.

I haven't done so much experimentation in the other direction as I have found the ID-78 formula works well, and which I think should work in a similar way to the Harman Warmtone liquid concentrate, along with a few other commercial products.

grainyvision · Jan 14, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
I haven't done so much experimentation in the other direction as I have found the ID-78 formula works well, and which I think should work in a similar way to the Harman Warmtone liquid concentrate, along with a few other commercial products.

My specific aim for warmtone developers was to get brown tones rather than olive tones. I won't spam this thread with my stuff though, you can look up GVPX1 or GVPX2 if you're interested (the key ingredient is ammonium saltS)

Alan Johnson · Jan 14, 2021

I tested some little known developers ,some from others. In the last 4 years:
TDLC- 103 for Adox CMS20:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/adox-cms20-developer.166900/page-3
Halcyon p-phenylenediamine
Caffeic acid
Hydroquinone version of Pyrocat
Crawley's FX-55
Parodinal with potassium metabisulfite
Swedish ascorbic acid developer

relistan · Jan 14, 2021

earlz said:
Yes, I've had the same issue, except with warm tones. This is part of why I'm interested in new formulas. The formulas of old do not work on modern materials like they did with the legacy stuff. I'm not sure what changed exactly, but it's a fairly big difference. The only modern paper that I can get good results from with some of those older developers is Fomatone Warmtone Classic FB, which is great, but I never want to be limited to a single paper type.

I tried D-166 and did not get much from it, either.

I am not yet where I'm making up my own formulas, but I did a lot of experimentation with PC-Glycol and ended up with a recipe that I liked with 5g/L sodium carbonate and 1-2g/L potassium bromide depending on film. It's pretty sharp, and I think gets less attention than PC-TEA because it requires the part B, but PC-Glycol is a pretty nice developer.

I have read your blog and was pretty interested in the stuff that you have been doing.

Nodda Duma · Jan 14, 2021

Lee Lira and I (mostly Lee) are working on a developer for silver gelatin dry plate ambrotypes. This is black glass coated with one of my emulsions and shot at ~ASA 32. Developed in Lee #2 test developer.

removed account4 · Jan 14, 2021

hi earlz

I don't really have any hard core formulae but I have tinkered a bit ....
I typically make caffenol but I don't really measure the ingredients. I usually use about X coffee 1/2X for washing soda and I add vit c until it starts foaming.
I also add a shake of whatever print developer I have on hand. It works well, and instead of instant coffee I use sumatran beans (robusta) I roast myself and brew a pot ( run the perk 3x ) ..
I have a print developer which I mixed buy teaspoons/table spoons which is like D72 but I put a bunch of glycin in there too so it is sort of like agfa125 or something in-between the 2. I use a coffee scoop and just dissolve 1 scoop in a tray of water and use that as a print developer. The powder is black like charcoal.

Like NoddaDuma I've also been making some silver gelatin emulsion. I've fallen in love with the simplest ( slowest) emulsion out there which is just salt water ( I use a local bay for my water ) and gelatin and distilled water. I've varied the amount of gelatin and salt and the ph of the mixture and had some fun with that ... I'm not as far along as NoddaDuma or Lee but I am also working on some sort of reversal -like developer for silver gelatin on a black substrate. My end goal is to make my own gelatin and be able to just make single step positives using a giant camera and the biggest paper I can find... I've had troubles with black papers bleeding into my chemistry so in the end I might do it on regular white paper and wax it and put it in front of something dark. I've also made the mistake of adding a little dilute print developer into my emulsion and made it not super stable but super fast ( YMMV )

have fun !
John

RalphLambrecht · Jan 14, 2021

earlz said:
I'm curious who out there (other than me) is creating new formulas for film and paper work. That includes developers, fixers, toners, even alt process stuff is interesting. I've not found many new formulas made in the past 10 years and wondering if formulation is just not interesting for people, or if there's a ton of hidden gems out there. So pitch what you've made and why it's worth trying out! Doesn't necessarily even have to be a brand new formula, could just be a moderately modified formula that suits your needs better. (only thing not that interesting is like, adding 1g extra bromide to Ansco 130 or something)

I experemented with 'black salt' to replace sulphide toning with apparently good success.

Christiaan Phleger · Jan 14, 2021

What is 'black salt'?
I did a version of Defender 55-D substituting out the MQ for AA/Diamezone when I had a Metol allergy during an extended darkroom time.

drkhalsa · Jan 14, 2021

Black salt is a salt that contains a lot of sulfur, which makes it look grey with black bits.
It is used in South Asian/Indian cuisine.

albada · Jan 14, 2021

About 7-8 years ago, I worked diligently to invent a two-part concentrate that is long lasting, yet gives image quality comparable to XTOL. Here's my article about it:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/mocon-xtol-quality-in-a-long-lasting-concentrate.219/
My bottle is 7 years old now, kept frozen the entire time, and still shows no signs of deterioration/oxidation. I last used it a month ago, and it gave the same leader-density as XTOL.
As a low-volume user, I love it, but most people would dislike it because (1) creating the concentrate requires that you mix ingredients into hot propylene glycol, and (2) to use it, you must measure out the correct amount of concentrate (liquid) and sodium sulfite (powder).
Mark Overton

grainyvision · Jan 15, 2021

albada said:
About 7-8 years ago, I worked diligently to invent a two-part concentrate that is long lasting, yet gives image quality comparable to XTOL. Here's my article about it:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/mocon-xtol-quality-in-a-long-lasting-concentrate.219/
My bottle is 7 years old now, kept frozen the entire time, and still shows no signs of deterioration/oxidation. I last used it a month ago, and it gave the same leader-density as XTOL.
As a low-volume user, I love it, but most people would dislike it because (1) creating the concentrate requires that you mix ingredients into hot propylene glycol, and (2) to use it, you must measure out the correct amount of concentrate (liquid) and sodium sulfite (powder).
Mark Overton

Oh that's fascinating. They're a pain to mix but I love concentrate developers like that. I definitely need to try that since the large volumes of xtol (and Kodak's recent quality problems) have been a turn off, but a one shot concentrate I'm all about. I also had no idea metaborate was soluble in PG, will definitely have to keep that in mind. I keep around a 10% solution of sulfite for various things, so that parts easy. Not a fan of weighing liquids (prefer volume even if it's less precise) but either way, seems I could just add some extra PG to make it easier to measure out. I don't understand how you got 4g of ascorbic acid into 12ml of PG though, unless the metaborate makes it more soluble. Using a PG temp of around 65C and maybe 45 minutes of stirring (thank god for magnetic stirrers) I was barely able to make an 8% solution of ascorbic acid in PG. The solution was remarkably stable though, I mixed it about a year ago, it's in a half empty bottle without much care, not refrigerated or anything but still seems about as active as the day I mixed it with no discoloration, gas release (ascorbic acid likes to decay to CO2) or anything. One question about your concentrate though, has it been observed to lose activity with more lazy storage methods or are you just taking precautions? And does it discolor or anything when it starts to go off?

grainyvision · Jan 15, 2021

RalphLambrecht said:
I experemented with 'black salt' to replace sulphide toning with apparently good success.

Did it still have the famous sulphide smell we all know and love? How exactly did you do that? I'd think sulfur isn't soluble unless you're basically doing a synthesis to convert it to something else

grainyvision · Jan 15, 2021

Nodda Duma said:
Lee Lira and I (mostly Lee) are working on a developer for silver gelatin dry plate ambrotypes. This is black glass coated with one of my emulsions and shot at ~ASA 32. Developed in Lee #2 test developer.

View attachment 263842

What exactly is the key to getting the ambrotype effect as far as development? I've gotten it a few times with experimental developers on ortho litho film and it's rather fascinating (though with film it never quite looks bright enough to me, can't get the backside dark enough). Key factors I've observed is under development and slight under exposure... but I never did enough with it to really know what would actually be an ideal developer for the effect.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jan 15, 2021

New formula I devised:

1. Replenished first developer for B&W reversal processing
Very economical.
Fits very well into my modified reversal processing workflow.
Good shelf life of > 6 months when stored properly.
Gives results I like on a variety of films I tried. I'll continue to use this.

2. Acetone developer
Started as a fun experiment inspired by the acetone based developer used by @Merg Ross. Acetone aside, the formula is different from the one used by Merg. Surprisingly good shelf life > 6 months when stored properly. Gives results I like on a couple of films I tried. Not exactly an XTol or Pyrocat killer, far from it actually, but decent enough for me to consider using it once in a while in the future to break monotony.

Formula I tinkered:

Rehalogenating dichromate bleach
I wanted to try dichromate intensifier on b&w slides. The well-known formula for dichromate intensifier uses HCl which I didn't want to use. @Ole recommended using sodium chloride in place of HCl but the resulting bleach was very slow for my use. So I added acetic acid to increase pH and it worked beautifully. Apparently, dichromate breaks down acetic acid eventually, but my acetified bleach has lasted over 6 months without a problem.

Formula I devised/tinkered but needs more work

Embarrassingly too many to list. A red toner for B&W slides is one of the most promising ones. I like the results I get from this toner but I feel there is a lot more work to be done. Might take it up again sometime later this year.

Tom Kershaw · Jan 15, 2021

Has anyone tried ascorbic acid based paper developers? e.g: http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/pde72.htm Hydroquinone has become more expensive and less available in the UK in recent times.

Nodda Duma · Jan 15, 2021

earlz said:
What exactly is the key to getting the ambrotype effect as far as development? I've gotten it a few times with experimental developers on ortho litho film and it's rather fascinating (though with film it never quite looks bright enough to me, can't get the backside dark enough). Key factors I've observed is under development and slight under exposure... but I never did enough with it to really know what would actually be an ideal developer for the effect.

as far as we can tell, the method I stumbled on leverages an interplay between dichroic fog, grain size, and reduction of the grain size in the emulsion. It’s pretty interesting and not the traditional underexposed approach like you mention. Highlights are very strong (dense?)

albada · Jan 15, 2021

earlz said:
Oh that's fascinating. They're a pain to mix but I love concentrate developers like that. I definitely need to try that since the large volumes of xtol (and Kodak's recent quality problems) have been a turn off, but a one shot concentrate I'm all about. I also had no idea metaborate was soluble in PG, will definitely have to keep that in mind. I keep around a 10% solution of sulfite for various things, so that parts easy. Not a fan of weighing liquids (prefer volume even if it's less precise) but either way, seems I could just add some extra PG to make it easier to measure out. I don't understand how you got 4g of ascorbic acid into 12ml of PG though, unless the metaborate makes it more soluble. Using a PG temp of around 65C and maybe 45 minutes of stirring (thank god for magnetic stirrers) I was barely able to make an 8% solution of ascorbic acid in PG. The solution was remarkably stable though, I mixed it about a year ago, it's in a half empty bottle without much care, not refrigerated or anything but still seems about as active as the day I mixed it with no discoloration, gas release (ascorbic acid likes to decay to CO2) or anything. One question about your concentrate though, has it been observed to lose activity with more lazy storage methods or are you just taking precautions? And does it discolor or anything when it starts to go off?

Yes, I observed that the metaborate appears to make it more soluble for ascorbic acid. That allowed me to make a very concentrated concentrate.
When stored at room temperature, Mocon turns light yellow after around 6 months, indicating a minor amount of oxidation. After that, it eventually turns dark yellow and then orange, indicating that it's gone off so much that it should be discarded.
But when frozen, it has kept for 7 years so far and is still as clear as water.

Have you tried dissolving Phenidone or Dimezone S alone in PG? If so, how long did it last?

Anon Ymous · Jan 15, 2021

@albada I have a little bit left of my 1% w/v solution of phenidone in propylene glycol that I mixed back in 2016. I mixed some Xtol with it a couple of days ago and it still works flawlessly.

john_s · Jan 15, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
Has anyone tried ascorbic acid based paper developers? e.g: http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/pde72.htm Hydroquinone has become more expensive and less available in the UK in recent times.

Ryuji Suzuki, who used to post here, devised some ascorbate developers including print developers:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070720203755/http://silvergrain.org/wiki/Silvergrain_formulae

grainyvision · Jan 17, 2021

john_s said:
Ryuji Suzuki, who used to post here, devised some ascorbate developers including print developers:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070720203755/http://silvergrain.org/wiki/Silvergrain_formulae

I remember these, I think I tried mixing one of the print developers but it didn't have the shelf life he indicated, likely due to using Phenidone rather than Dimezone. I don't recall anything special about the results, but I'm always in the search for an Ansco 130 style developer that can be used for months

albada · Jan 17, 2021

earlz said:
I remember these, I think I tried mixing one of the print developers but it didn't have the shelf life he indicated, likely due to using Phenidone rather than Dimezone. I don't recall anything special about the results, but I'm always in the search for an Ansco 130 style developer that can be used for months

You can buy PF-130 from Photographer's Formulary, which is the same formula as Ansco 130. Have you tried it?
Also, they publish its formula, so you can mix it yourself if you wish. I haven't tried it, but the stock solution supposedly keeps for at least 6 months.

grainyvision · Jan 17, 2021

albada said:
You can buy PF-130 from Photographer's Formulary, which is the same formula as Ansco 130. Have you tried it?
Also, they publish its formula, so you can mix it yourself if you wish. I haven't tried it, but the stock solution supposedly keeps for at least 6 months.

Yes Ansco 130 is just the older potentially trade marked name for the formula they publish. I mix it from raw chemicals rather than buying a kit. I highly recommend it either way, it's an excellent developer. I'm currently testing a developer that might give similar results and tray life without the hard to source (internationally) glycin component

Who is actually making new formulas? What have you made!?

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