Who DID buy all of the AZO????

Curt said:

I came to this conclusion today after a week in Paris where photography is dead and tripods are not even allowed. People overseas don't even know what photography is. All you hear is "my battery is dead" or "shit, i'm out of memory cards". It's a black day and it's going to be a black future for "regular" photography. We are in the Finis of traditional photography.

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Well aren't you a ray of sunshine!

c6h6o3 said:

It might serve to hasten the demise of film, which is my personal worst nightmare.

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I haven't been shooting seriously for long, just 5 yrs or so, and only printing for 1 yr, so I'm certainly no expert on the engineering of photography. Having said that, let me ask what seems like the obvious question:

This stuff is all technology from what, the 1800's? None of this is rocket science. Whether its Azo or Rodinal or whatever it is, it seems to me some bright boy with a lot of gumption and some smarts is going to come along and fill the market void.

Seriously. If we can have tear-your-throat-out arguments about how many moles of unobtanium to leave in the titrate of homebrew Rodinal, it seems to me there's plenty of expertise out there to get us through the impending ice age.

zenrhino said:

None of this is rocket science.

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Rocket science is easier. As was stated earlier, it is as much an art as it is science.

Curt said:

I came to this conclusion today after a week in Paris where photography is dead and tripods are not even allowed. People overseas don't even know what photography is. All you hear is "my battery is dead" or "shit, i'm out of memory cards". It's a black day and it's going to be a black future for "regular" photography. We are in the Finis of traditional photography.

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Er....Curt, could it be that you were just hanging with the wrong crowd?
-Bob

On the street a cop indicated up with the tripod, Near Napoleons tomb a military man indicated up with the tripod. He watched me setup and just when I was going to shoot he made his move. They are not friendly. I have been to many places and never had that happen. What the hell are they keeping secret? Imagine if we did that here? I took pictures of the 911 site and talked to the police and military without a problem.

Like Frank L. Wright said, "If you don't have the whole idea you don't have anything".
A perfect contact print as stated by MAS in no and I mean no other terms is: A perfect negative, preferably Super XX, Azo paper developed with Amidol. To to that method I spent thousands in preparation for the big event of ULF photography. First it was the bulb, then it was the Amidol, then I ordered 1000 sheets of Azo paper because MAS told me not to worry he would always have Kodak Azo paper.

What I get in return is a trial pack of 1000 sheets without the ability to buy the main part, namely the Azo paper. At my age and given my experience, I can't wait years for someone to come up with something similar.

I will have to find some kind of paper that gives an acceptable image and live with it. Being a perfectionist it bite me in the ass to have this happen.

Is there anyone else over 50 who has been sucked in by this ULF photo method?

There is a word for those led down the garden path: chump. and I don't like being a chump. Product doesn't just disappear, someone has an answer. Maybe the FTC has one?

Always check your premises.

Curt said:

Like Frank L. Wright said, "If you don't have the whole idea you don't have anything".
A perfect contact print as stated by MAS in no and I mean no other terms is: A perfect negative, preferably Super XX, Azo paper developed with Amidol. To to that method I spent thousands in preparation for the big event of ULF photography. First it was the bulb, then it was the Amidol, then I ordered 1000 sheets of Azo paper because MAS told me not to worry he would always have Kodak Azo paper.

What I get in return is a trial pack of 1000 sheets without the ability to buy the main part, namely the Azo paper. At my age and given my experience, I can't wait years for someone to come up with something similar.

I will have to find some kind of paper that gives an acceptable image and live with it. Being a perfectionist it bite me in the ass to have this happen.

Is there anyone else over 50 who has been sucked in by this ULF photo method?

There is a word for those led down the garden path: chump. and I don't like being a chump. Product doesn't just disappear, someone has an answer. Maybe the FTC has one?

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A perfect contact print as stated by MAS in no and I mean no other terms is: A perfect negative, preferably Super XX, Azo paper developed with Amidol

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:rolleyes:

A perfect contact print as stated by MAS in no and I mean no other terms is: A perfect negative, preferably Super XX, Azo paper developed with Amidol.

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Ugh. That makes photography sound like a chem final. The minute photography reminds me more of science class than art, I quit. Or I'll sell everything but the Holga. Either way.

Azo

There is a lot I will respond to when I return from traveling.

For now: Curt, please do not misquote me.It is frustrating to have words attributed to me that I never said or wrote. I have never said anything regarding perfection or "the perfect print". I do not know what a "perfect print" would be. it might be something different for different people. What I have said is "A good negative is one that yields a good print." At some point I may also have added, "A perfect negative is one that yields a perfect print." But should a statement would never be accompanied by claiming Super XX is the "perfect" film. I do think, however, that Azo is the best black and white paper (that was) available (and an Azo clone will soon be available) although it is not perfect by any means.

Azo

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There is a lot I will respond to when I return from traveling.

For now: Curt, please do not misquote me.It is frustrating to have words attributed to me that I never said or wrote. I have never said anything regarding perfection or "the perfect print". I do not know what a "perfect print" would be. it might be something different for different people. What I have said is "A good negative is one that yields a good print." At some point I may also have added, "A perfect negative is one that yields a perfect print." But should a statement would never be accompanied by claiming Super XX is the "perfect" film. I do think, however, that Azo is the best black and white paper (that was) available (and an Azo clone will soon be available) although it is not perfect by any means.


Dear Michael, I apologize for any remarks that you have taken personally. I wrote you this summer and ask what would be a life time supply of Azo. You said don't worry you would always have a supply of Azo. I bought a 1000 sheets and figured you were a reliable supplier being a fine photographer. I was preparing to attend one of your seminars and looking forward to only contact printing. I spent a considerable amount of money on equipment and supplies and was going to buy at least several years worth of Azo paper. I know I'm not alone and I am not whinning here. I lost and you win. You are the one with the freezer full of paper and film not me or thousands of people all over the globe.
When I quote I use quotation marks for an exact quotation. Do you see any in my post? For instance your remark, "I don't know what a "perfect" print is".

How often do people say; that's perfect? It's a perfect print. When I see some of you prints I think that just perfect. That's a perfect example of what an execution of a well make negative can perform. Super XX is the film to be compared to otherwise why is it so often referred to? I used it at Art Center and Brooks Institute. I had no choice then, they required it. All of my lower class negatives are Super XX. I have not noticed any other that is compared as much as Super XX. You have stated in many writings about Super XX and don't you have a large supply of it and use it today?

This brings me to the Kodak Azo issue. What a great many people want to know is where did all of the master rolls that were apparently available recently and now are gone? Can you say or is it a secret?

Regards Curt

What do you mean by "When Kodak first went belly up on analog"?

What

I've printed on samples of Michaels replacement paper. It is beautiful and very much like AZO. As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen.

What's going on here?

JandC

"I've printed on samples of Michaels replacement paper. It is beautiful and very much like AZO. As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen."
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Who is Michael and what do you mean by "As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen."?

Where is a paper "very much like AZO" available?

Are samples available that require "enough demand and orders for the product it will happen"?

Curt,
My reading of this and other threads is:
1) The AZO was either not of the quantity that Kodak claimed or whilst Michael was in Europe the grade 3 was bought by others. So I don't think Michael bought it out for himself leaving you to lose and him to win.

2) J and C has tested or has a source for an AZO like paper, that if people want it in sufficient quantity it will hit the market.

Curt said:

JandC

"I've printed on samples of Michaels replacement paper. It is beautiful and very much like AZO. As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen."
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Who is Michael and what do you mean by "As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen."?

Where is a paper "very much like AZO" available?

Are samples available that require "enough demand and orders for the product it will happen"?

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The same Michael you wrote a paragraph to 4 posts up.

As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen means exactly what is says. Money makes things happen. What else needs to be said?

This is Michaels project and he is working the issues of making it happen. My comments were just intended to point out that a replacement is possible and far enough alonmg in development to be able to be produced very quickly, if the money (orders) are there.

Curt,

From what I read you have 1000-x (One Thousand minus x) sheets of azo. I'm not sure if this number is for both grade 2 and grade 3 or if the 1000 is a combination.

If and when you take the "Vision and Technique Workshop" one of the things that you will see is how efficient Michael is at producing a print. 1000 sheets of the necessary grade, a light bulb and a metronome could equal 200 or 250 good prints. If you also had sufficient stock for proofing purposes, these 200-250 could be final if not "fine" prints.

So my question is how many sheets of grade 3 azo do you have left? It well may be more than enough to carry you through the availabilty of a new Silver Chloride paper.

Mike Davis

Life changes. Photography is about life and will change too. Because of a change in circumstances I went from contact printing on 8x10 to enlarging on 35mm, due to an overwhelming compulsion to photograph.
How badly do you want to photograph?

jandc said:

My comments were just intended to point out that a replacement is possible and far enough along in development to be able to be produced very quickly, if the money (orders) are there.

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Are there any ideas of a "when" and a "how much?" I was interested in trying out Azo when I moved up to 8x10 cameras, but I guess it's a good thing I was able to hold off as now I don't have to learn one thing and then relearn another paper.

One thing that crossed my mind, why is it anyones business who bought up the remaining stock of Azo. If I had the ways and means to make a minimum order from Kodak (i dont) that would be between me and the seller, and would be no one elses business. If I was the buyer ( I'm not), and the info was disclosed, I would be consulting with an attorny.

The materials come and go. Varigam, Polycontrast, Medalist, Portriga, Brovira, now AZO.
Maybe it would be a good idea to move around the changes, adapt, work on our vision, let the materials come and go, make pictures we love using what is available. All the great photographers before us have done that. Any artist whose career spans the length of a Brett Weston or a Paul Strand has gone through many changes in available materials with the strength of their vision undiminished. There are dozens of threads on this website that say the same thing, namely, AZO is a just tool, a means to an end, not a magic bullet, not the last word in silver gelatin paper.

rhphoto said:

The materials come and go. Varigam, Polycontrast, Medalist, Portriga, Brovira, now AZO.
Maybe it would be a good idea to move around the changes, adapt, work on our vision, let the materials come and go, make pictures we love using what is available. All the great photographers before us have done that. Any artist whose career spans the length of a Brett Weston or a Paul Strand has gone through many changes in available materials with the strength of their vision undiminished. There are dozens of threads on this website that say the same thing, namely, AZO is a just tool, a means to an end, not a magic bullet, not the last word in silver gelatin paper.

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Curt,

I did not "win." Paula and I have hardly any paper at all. Relatively speaking, your 1,000 sheets will take you a lot further than our paper supply will take us. I say that based on how much paper the average user uses. There ae only a couple of photographers who use more than 1,000 sheets in a year. And long before then we should have the new paper.

So, who bought the Azo? I know of one photographer who told me he purchased X quantity of Grade 3 after I told him we would only sell him one box. His quantity came to 10% of all that remained. I was not happy when he told me this, but it was his right to do so. I do not know who bought up the rest of it.

Paula and I are going to have other paper made. Certainly we need it for ourselves. But even if we had enough for our own lifetime supply we would still have it made so that others could use it.

Our Vision and Technique Workshop is about a whole lot more than printing on Azo. The printing part is more about an approach to printing--an approach that works with enlargements as well as contact prints and an approach that works with all papers. (As a byproduct of that approach you will save at least half of your paper, although that is not the point of it.) A number of people have taken our wprkshop because they want to learn to print on Azo. They learn that, but they find that was the least of what they got out of the workshop. So if you were thinking of taking our workshop, go right ahead. I believe you are in California. Right now there is one space remaining in our workshop in Sedona, Arizona, January 26-29. That's a lot closer to you than is Pennsylvania.

I do not recall what you purchased, but if you did not get any Grade 2, order some for proofing. I recommend you do not waste the Grade 3 on proofs.

Brook said:

One thing that crossed my mind, why is it anyones business who bought up the remaining stock of Azo. If I had the ways and means to make a minimum order from Kodak (i dont) that would be between me and the seller, and would be no one elses business. If I was the buyer ( I'm not), and the info was disclosed, I would be consulting with an attorny.

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I don't know what a lawyer can do, but as for the rest of Brook's post, I have to agree 100%...

At this point in time

It has been bought
Kodak has none left

And in all reality, there is nothing that can been done about it now...

Keep things positive look to the future, dweling on the past events and supplies is not going to do any good at all!

Hopefully M&P will be able to come up with a viable product to satisfy the needs of the market, but as far as AZO, its gone, it overwith and its done..

Dave

While most people who sell things are discreet about who their customers are, and it might not be anybody's business, and it would in in the best interests of the business usually to be discreet, I don't believe that this is legally privileged information. Businesses sell their customer lists all the time for marketing purposes, for instance.