Who DID buy all of the AZO????

[vet173]

Anyone know what the minimum purchase of AZO was from Kodak?

When I sak my local store if they could order a a box, they said their minimum order was 27 boxes.

 

[Daniel Lawton]

Like others have already said, its an issue of supply and demand not a case of anyone getting ripped off. Its not like we are talking about a life-saving vaccine here. People have always paid premium prices for rare items of which there is a finite supply. (Rare coins, automobiles, limited edition artwork etc...) None of these things are essential to life as we know it and no one is forced to get ripped off. However as the supply of these things decreases and it becomes apparent that there isn't enough to go around, the price will be set accordingly. AZO is not any different and I'm afraid there is no subverting the mechanics of a free trade system and human will.

 

[Brook]

Perhaps on the bright side, it may be time to raise the print prices on existing Azo prints and prints made from remaining stock. Supply and demand works through out.

 

[mark]

Perhaps on the bright side, it may be time to raise the print prices on existing Azo prints and prints made from remaining stock. Supply and demand works through out.

But that would not be fair to the photo buying community.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

can you imagine if the last AZO were in the hands of some muddleheaded and non talented photographer? Good paper wasted on garbage photography! Let us hope this is not the case.

 

[Dave Parker]

There will not be a replacement for Azo. Not from MAS, and not from anyone else. What remains of Azo is all there will ever be. I'm afraid those are the cold, hard facts of the matter.

Jay

Jay,

And you know this how?

You can't say never, the basis of photography is....."Yes I can"

So I would be interested to know the source of you information saying "Never"?

Dave

 

[roteague]

Perhaps the old saying applies "Pray for the best, prepare for the worst".

 

[Dave Parker]

Hi Dave.

I'm forecasting, and only time will tell if I'm right or wrong, but I feel very confident in my predictions. I would be interested to know your source that says the basis of photography is "yes I can".

Jay

Jay,

Everything about photography has been based on someone telling someone they could not do it, even Kodak did what he did, because someone said no, you can't do that, need is the mother of invention...

The only reason we have photography as you and I know it is because someone said 'Yes' it can be done..

I think the glass is half full, and unfortunately, some feel it is half empty.

Dave

 

[David]

Will the person who says it can't be done, please stay out of the way of the person who is doing it!

 

[jandc]

I've printed on samples of Michaels replacement paper. It is beautiful and very much like AZO. As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen.

 

[John Bartley]

There will not be a replacement for Azo. Not from MAS, and not from anyone else. .... MAS is about to get real stingy with his supply, because although he won't say so, he knows that there is no replacement waiting in the wings, and he's not about to switch to another paper if he can avoid it. ... If the unique characteristics of Azo warrant, pay any price necessary for it. Otherwise, find another paper because it will not be replaced.

Jay

This is what I would also believe and it will be like this purely for business reasons. As long as "similar result" papers are available from existing manufacturing processes, no-one will invest in new lines knowing that minimal profits are inevitable.
As far as MAS being "stingy", I can't really say I blame him. I'd do the same thing.

cheers

 

[c6h6o3]

I've printed on samples of Michaels replacement paper. It is beautiful and very much like AZO. As long as there is enough demand and orders for the product it will happen.

I certainly hope you'll be part of the supply chain, John, should this thing come to fruition.

One thing I know: if this paper isn't at least as good as Kodak's final Azo run (and I also know that Michael and Paula have a lot of complaints about the existing grade 2, which they rarely use) then Jay's forecast will be dead on. If, however, the new paper meets his exacting standards, then the money to get it to market will be there. Michael Smith is nothing if not driven.

 

[jandc]

JandC,

if we had ham we could make a ham sandwich if we had bread.

Jay

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

 

[c6h6o3]

MAS is about to get real stingy with his supply,

About to get? I don't see how he could be any stingier than "Out of Stock Forever". Azo (and Canadian Grade 2 doesn't count) is gone. Since they failed to lay in the lifetime supply they were counting on before Kodak yanked the rug out from underneath them, you'll hardly be accused of engaging in hyperbole by using the word 'stingy' to describe how they'll husband any remaining stock.

 

[jandc]

I certainly hope you'll be part of the supply chain, John, should this thing come to fruition.

One thing I know: if this paper isn't at least as good as Kodak's final Azo run (and I also know that Michael and Paula have a lot of complaints about the existing grade 2, which they rarely use) then Jay's forecast will be dead on. If, however, the new paper meets his exacting standards, then the money to get it to market will be there. Michael Smith is nothing if not driven.

Prints of the same negative on old Azo and the new paper are very similar. Which is very amazing to me considering the new paper was devised from scratch without knowing any of the Kodak details.

 

[c6h6o3]

Prints of the same negative on old Azo and the new paper are very similar.

With what grades of this new paper were you provided? Does new grade 3=Azo grade 3 in terms of contrast? Any grade 4?

 

[Alex Hawley]

Originally Posted by jdef
JandC,

if we had ham we could make a ham sandwich if we had bread.

Jay

What exactly is this supposed to mean?

It means Jay is hijacking the thread with his eternal tirade against Michael A. Smith. Just the mere mention of MAS will bring out Jay and his vitriole.

Jay, couldn't you give us a break just for once?

 

[Alex Hawley]

Prints of the same negative on old Azo and the new paper are very similar. Which is very amazing to me considering the new paper was devised from scratch without knowing any of the Kodak details.

John, this is very good to hear. This is a good positive sign that the Azo replacement project is progressing. I hope it makes it to market.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Jay,

And you know this how?

You can't say never, the basis of photography is....."Yes I can"

So I would be interested to know the source of you information saying "Never"?

Dave

Dave, I know a lot about the subject of making AgCl emulsions to work like Azo paper. I would tend to agree more with Jay, unfortunately.

I believe that the results will be close, but not perfect, and that difference may mean little to some and a lot to others. IDK, but until we say it is here in our hands, I will reserve judgement on the subject and I prefer to err on the side of pessimism.

I have sources of information that make me feel conservative about this. I'm not totally ruling it out, just advising caution.

PE

 

[Donald Miller]

I don't sense that Jay is demeaning Michael in an unwarranted way. I don't know anything about formulating emulsions...but I would tend to listen to those who do.

I really have no dog in this fight...just wanted to comment on Jay's comments...I don't sense a problem

 

[jmdavis]

Alex,

maybe you need to look up a definition for vitriole. Between the two of us, you're the only one who has made personal, inappropriate, off-topic comments. If you have a complaint regarding my posts, contact a moderator. In the meantime, you owe me an appology.

Jay

Huh, what?

Jdef,

I have read tens of posts by you attacking MAS. Anyone who doubts this see for yourself. They are on APUG, AZO forum and Large Format forum (I believe). The one above is another example, you make an aside about business ethics. You fail to provide any information, however. But then again, such behavior is classic passive-aggressive. You do it with MAS and you do it with Sandy King. If anyone wants to see for themselves, most of it is in the various archives. Alex knows it. I know it and I'm sure others do as well.

Mike Davis

 

[Donald Miller]

Huh, what?

Jdef,

I have read tens of posts by you attacking MAS anyone who doubts this see for yourself. They are on APUG, AZO forum and Large Format forum (I believe).. The one above is another example, you make an aside about business ethics. You fail to provide any information, however. But then again, such behavior is classic passive-aggressive. You do it with MAS and you do it with Sandy King. If anyone wants to see for themselves, most of it is in the various archives. Alex knows it. I know it and I'm sure others do as well.

Mike Davis

Mike,

I tend to disagree with you in this instance. I know perfectly well what Jay is alluding to. I am sure that you remember too. He was being kind to Michael in not dragging the whole matter through the mud again.

If anyone is hijacking the thread, I don't view it as Jay in this instance.

 

[removed account4]

Is is possible that people doing work for the U.S. national archives/ national historical register bought the rest of it? I seem to remember someone telling me that their requirements for some photo-documentation work was 5x7 contact prints on Azo.

hi clay -

i think it is habs/haer documentations that you are thinking of.
5x7 is their prefered format, but they will also accept 4x5 and 8x10.
they don't actually require that all printing be done on azo, but they used to ask that it be single weight paper, and since azo was one of the last single weight papers ... i know a few people that don't bother with the single weight thing and just print on double weight fiber paper.

since the federal government stopped accepting submissions on locally significant properties, state's historic preservation commissions set the rules for what submissions will be printed on. a lot of the states aren't set-up for large format submissions, so unfortunately they take 35mm film+4x6 or 5x7 enlargements. and i know kent, who sometimes contributes here on apug ( works at a state archives )has suggested that everything is kind of gearing up to all digital submissions.

as for national register guidelines, that is a different thing altogether. they *used to* ( 80s and early 90s) require everything be printed on fb paper (read: archival) but fewer and fewer labs were able to print on that, and people complained of the cost of a fiber print, so they began to accept rc prints, and now, at least here in new england, i've been told, they accept digital outputs in some states. i've talked to fellow preservation people, and have been told that things may be going back to traditional film because no one has any idea of archival-ness of digital-stuff, but i have no idea ...

as for who has all the azo ...
maybe the library of congress bought some of it. i know the habs office prints all their own projects &C on azo ... and they shoot 8x10 format too.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Prints of the same negative on old Azo and the new paper are very similar. Which is very amazing to me considering the new paper was devised from scratch without knowing any of the Kodak details.

JandC, I've been able to duplicate this in my home darkroom.

The proof comes when you test all 3 grades for reciprocity, latent image keeping and raw stock keeping for starters. You might also include the image scale and tone in that and a few others such as product uniformity and batch to batch variations. And how about defects across a 20x24 sheet for one? Or dust specks, gel slugs and 'pepper' which is common in AgCl emulsions.

How about the spectral sensitivity?

A deviation in any of these will make it non-Azo like to some user out there. This is important if the product is to survive the marketplace.

I can't live up to those other tests yet, and I doubt if the manufacturer of the material you tested can either with such a short interval from conception to sample.

Some of the details on making Azo are published if you know where to look. Apparently, the guys that did the work for M&P knew. I assure you that they don't know everything!

PE

 

[jmdavis]

Mike,

I tend to disagree with you in this instance. I know perfectly well what Jay is alluding to. I am sure that you remember too. He was being kind to Michael in not dragging the whole matter through the mud again.

If anyone is hijacking the thread, I don't view it as Jay in this instance.

Donald,

I worry less about the hijacking and more about the attacks. I have conducted business with MAS for paper and books. I have taken the Vision and Technique Workshop. I am looking right now at one of his prints above my desk from the Toledo series. I think that if it is possible to bring a substitute for Azo to market, he is the man to do it. As for his ethics, I trust him.


Mike Davis