Who DID buy all of the AZO????

wbryant · Dec 1, 2005

I have been following the discussions of Michael Smith and his dilemma with AZO. I have just started using it, and am saddened that it is no longer available in grade 3. (I still have about 90 sheets of 8x10) When Kodak first went belly up on analog, I was going to buy a 500 sheet pack, but everything indicated that I did not need to, there was plenty left. but now it turns out that someone, or a group of people bought all the master rolls of AZO. so long winded leadup to my question.... Who did buy all of the AZO??? someone must know.

vet173 · Dec 1, 2005

We'll find out when it goes up on e-bay. I hope micheals new paper, if it comes out, is better and no one wants the old. That would be justice.

markbb · Dec 1, 2005

I not sure I understand your logic here? M&P have been running an effective monopoly on Azo, & now maybe someone else is entering the market, surely this must be a good thing for people who want to buy it?

reggie · Dec 1, 2005

markbb said:
I not sure I understand your logic here? M&P have been running an effective monopoly on Azo, & now maybe someone else is entering the market, surely this must be a good thing for people who want to buy it?

The formula to work out the reasoning is:

Altruism + capitalism = GOOD
capitalism = EVIL

I agree competition is good, but with a fixed supply the natural laws of supply and demand will take over and who knows where the prices will go?

There is going to be more than 1 AZO-like chlorobromide replacement paper on the market soon, and if both are as good as AZO, then things may get even more fun with marketing hype - "My AZO clone is bettan their AZO clone!" Can't wait to see the 'tests' and tehnical comparisons and endorsements coming. This should be a lot of fun. The good thing is that the consumer should come out ahead and be much better off than with one seller with a virtual monopoly.

-R

Christopher Colley · Dec 1, 2005

Al Qaeda? ;-)

markbb · Dec 1, 2005

reggie said:
The formula to work out the reasoning is:

Altruism + capitalism = GOOD
capitalism = EVIL

substituting, we get:

Altruism + EVIL = GOOD

So you are stating EVIL is necessary to turn Altruism into Goodness.

laz · Dec 1, 2005

Christopher Colley said:
Al Qaeda? ;-)

LOL! (Truely, I'm not kidding!)

reggie · Dec 1, 2005

markbb said:
substituting, we get:

Altruism + EVIL = GOOD

So you are stating EVIL is necessary to turn Altruism into Goodness.

I'm simplys stating that to some, it seems that they can't stand pure capitalistic endeavore - there must be some measure of altruism (real or imagined) toosed in to make the sellers motivations pure. They cant stand the idea of selling sole for profit.

Substituting isn't allowed.

-Mike

avandesande · Dec 1, 2005

Offhand I know of at least 4 other dealers of AZO. How did they have a monopoly (some cheaper some more expensive).
There is rumor that Kodak screwed up and never really made the last batch of grade 3.

markbb said:
I not sure I understand your logic here? M&P have been running an effective monopoly on Azo, & now maybe someone else is entering the market, surely this must be a good thing for people who want to buy it?

markbb · Dec 1, 2005

avandesande said:
Offhand I know of at least 4 other dealers of AZO. How did they have a monopoly (some cheaper some more expensive).
There is rumor that Kodak screwed up and never really made the last batch of grade 3.

I was under the impression that M&P bought up the entire run of Azo from Kodak, any other re-seller must have bought it from them. Of course, I could be wrong.,

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 1, 2005

According to Michael, Kodak was still willing to sell to anyone who made a minimum order, and up until the end, that was only Michael and Paula for grade 3, though B&H and a few other places stocked grade 2. Michael's claim is that a few large purchasers made the minimum order for grade 3, so there was less available than they had predicted, and the question is--who were those large purchasers?

Even if M&P had an effective monopoly, I don't think they were profiteering off paper sales. I hope they made a little money for their troubles, but if they did, it was probably more from workshops than paper.

Daniel Grenier · Dec 1, 2005

wbryant said:
.... Who did buy all of the AZO??? someone must know.

Its not so much who bought the Azo as to what the @%$# they're doing with it. Whoever bought the stuff sure is keeping quiet so far (that is, if it's even for sale !). I am currently looking for 20x24 Azo 3 and I sure as heck know of no one selling it at this time.

clay · Dec 1, 2005

Is is possible that people doing work for the U.S. national archives/ national historical register bought the rest of it? I seem to remember someone telling me that their requirements for some photo-documentation work was 5x7 contact prints on Azo.

markbb · Dec 1, 2005

Thanks David, that's made things clearer for me. If M&P were making any profit or not with Azo, it's none of my concern - or anyone elses.

If this the last of Azo, with Kodak tearing down the production line, I expect there have been some speculative purchases. If so, it will go on sale as supplies dry up. Personally, I can't see anything wrong with this, people will either pay up for paper or not - no one is forcing them to buy.

clay · Dec 1, 2005

I made myself curious. Here is an example of the photo requirements from the state of Indiana:
http://www.state.in.us/dnr/historic/nrfaqs.html

Interesting that they do not accept any C41 process prints or any digital prints because of archival issues. My guess is that they will be forced to relax this requirements very soon if no more black and white paper is available.

User Removed · Dec 1, 2005

I know a few photographer who purchased what they feel is a lifetime supply of AZO right before it ran out.

I did a seach for G3 AZO on Google, and found several dealers that were selling G3, but had never sold it before. Some of the places were not even photography related sites!!!

Personally, if the stuff shows up on Ebay...I am not going to spend insane amounts on the paper and support the people who are thinking they will make a profit on ripping off other photographers. I'm hoping it will not be long till M+P come up with a new AZO, then we can all start using that

Ryan McIntosh

markbb · Dec 1, 2005

McPhotoX said:
Personally, if the stuff shows up on Ebay...I am not going to spend insane amounts on the paper and support the people who are thinking they will make a profit on ripping off other photographers.
Ryan McIntosh

But Ryan, how could they be 'ripping' anyone off? People will either pay the market rate, or not.

Dave Parker · Dec 1, 2005

I hate to say it, but I can't see how anyone is ripping anyone off here, there is a limited supply and somebody bought it up, that is the way business works, those who have the money purchase the items, when it comes to limited supply items, some buy on speculation and some buy for usuage, the market will determine what the item is worth, when it comes down to business people, they have no obligation whats so ever to provide a service to the photographic community or any other community for that matter.

When it comes down to it, those who are looking for AZO will determine what the market will do, either people will buy it, or it will sit on a shelf somewhere, what happened between M&P and Kodak, is forever going to be speculation, M&P will have there side of the story and Kodak will have their side of the story...

Hopefully M&P will be able to come up with something that will work, I hope they do, it will show the independance of the community and perhaps break the strangle hold some of these big companies have had over the community for many years.

But as far as somebody ripping people off, I think this is a pretty broad statement, and don't see it that way.

I am sorry, those who are upset have to understand, this is how a free market works.

Dave

mark · Dec 1, 2005

Who is ripping the photographic community off, and how are they doing it?

Jorge · Dec 1, 2005

McPhotoX said:
I know a few photographer who purchased what they feel is a lifetime supply of AZO right before it ran out.

I did a seach for G3 AZO on Google, and found several dealers that were selling G3, but had never sold it before. Some of the places were not even photography related sites!!!

Personally, if the stuff shows up on Ebay...I am not going to spend insane amounts on the paper and support the people who are thinking they will make a profit on ripping off other photographers. I'm hoping it will not be long till M+P come up with a new AZO, then we can all start using that

Ryan McIntosh

WHat are you talking about? This is just the market place at work. For years MAS offered grade 3 paper in 100 sheets boxes. Since he was the only one able to do this he charged more for a box of grade 3 than a box of grade 2. Would you call this "ripping off" the photographic community?

Brook · Dec 1, 2005

I found a few 100 sheet boxes of 4.5" x 5.5" double weight deckled edge E surface Azo, expired in 1965, a few years back. After testing and finding it was fine, I sold a box for what even I thought was a rather obscene amount of money.
The person I bought it from was happy to get a few bucks for "old junk" and my buyer was tickled to be able to print some really classy portraits for high end clients. No one got ripped off, despite some hefty profits realized by myself and my buyer.

Who ever bought up the Azo is taking a risk. All photo paper, even Azo, is perishable.
The only way anyone will make "obscene" profits is if enough photographers really belive it is the only paper that can be printed on. Its up to us.

Looking at the price hike in Illford MGIV, I wonder if MAS does bring a new chloride paper to market, if it will be more expensive than the horded Azo that will hit the market.
As a stock item, Azo could be had for about $.67 a sheet for 8x10. I am guessing as a finate stock, it may go to 2-3 dollars a sheet for those willing to pay it. MGIV rc is a about a buck a sheet right now, I bet a new chloride paper will be in the 2-3 dollar/sheet range, or more.
Bottem line is if you are dependant on something you have little or no control over the supply or the means of production, you are stuck with what you can get, at the price you can get it at.

toddstew · Dec 1, 2005

Daniel Grenier said:
Its not so much who bought the Azo as to what the @%$# they're doing with it. Whoever bought the stuff sure is keeping quiet so far (that is, if it's even for sale !). I am currently looking for 20x24 Azo 3 and I sure as heck know of no one selling it at this time.

I actually saw a box of grade 3 20x24 on ebay yesterday. look at 8x10 and bigger cameras.

Daniel Grenier · Dec 1, 2005

toddstew said:
I actually saw a box of grade 3 20x24 on ebay yesterday. look at 8x10 and bigger cameras.

Are you sure about that? I don't see anything at this time. Might have been a "buy now" or what you may have seen is the Azo 2 (not 3) that sold for $491 a couple days ago.

Jim Chinn · Dec 1, 2005

If I had a large supply of AZO that I had bought to make a profit I would not offer it for sale now. You would want to wait untill most everyone had depleted their current supply. You want to have the largest possible pool of bidders to drive up the price of a product.

I would suspect if there really is someone who bought a large stock of say 20x24 G3, it would be spring when it would start to show up on the market via Ebay or retail.

Anyone know what the minimum purchase of AZO was from Kodak?
I ask because if it had been publically known that such a transaction was possible, a group probably could have been organized to make a minimum purchase.

I stated in a thread last year with the announcement of the end of AZO production that as long as Kodak actually held the master rolls, one could never be sure of the final disposition of the product.

jandc · Dec 1, 2005

Look at the bright side. If indeed the paper is being kept, waiting for the day when it can be sold for absurd prices, then the introduction of the replacement paper at normal prices will make their investment worthless.

However, my speculation is that the bulk of the paper was bought by people or institutions that had a use for it and not for future sales.

Who DID buy all of the AZO????

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