White spots and dust are driving me crazy!

[Derek Ealy]

Hi

I've been getting back into shooting and developing BW film for a while now. I'm scanning the negs and it is such a battle with white spots and dust that it is kinda taking the joy out of it. The spots and dust on some frames are so bad that cloning them out would take hours.

I'm working on the dust blobs by building my own film dryer, and adding makeshift air filters. But that still isn't working well enough.

What I'm mostly asking about are the white spots. I don't think they're dust and am looking for suggestions about what might be the cause and what is the solution. Here is an under exposed crop that is filled with little white spots. It isn't like this on every frame, this one in fact is probably the worst. I've already made a few prints from other frames that had dark areas that look pretty decent.

The film is HP5+ presoaked for a couple of min, developed in D-76 1:1, with Kodak stop bath, fixer and hypo clearing agent, washed in running water for 5 min. I didn't use filtered water when mixing up the D-76. I used distilled water and PhotoFlo as the final step.

I'm battling with tiny white spots, dust and even a few scratches in the film base from the camera. Doing my own film I know is a lot of work but can be quite satisfying. The dust and dots are killing me though.

Suggestions would be really appreciated.

Thanks, Derek

 

[otto.f]

Don’t scan. Wet printing gives less or hardly dust problems; in scanning the environment is always static. And stop with Kodak products, not reliable since 2008

 

[MattKing]

I'm going to disagree about Kodak products (which won't surprise many here).
When it comes to dust, some types of scanners are worse than others, just as certain types of enlarger light sources are worse than others. The more diffuse the light, the better the dust situation.
Some of the white spots I see in that image look like they might be digital noise, rather than dust. If you rotate the film 180 degrees, with the emulsion still facing the same way, do the white spots move, or are they still in the same location? If they move, the problem might be in the scanner.
One further source of dust problems relates to humidity. If you dry your film slowly, in a slightly more humid environment, and handle the film in more humid environments, dust tends to be less of a problem.

 

[Ariston]

I'm sure you know this, but just in case... Don't forget that you have to wipe down the scanner bed, not just the film. I find brushes much more effective than the little blowers people use.

 

[Paul Howell]

Post in the hybrid thread, might get additional responses.

 

[foc]

I would suggest you try a process of elimination for your dust problem.
From what you say it doesn't appear to be in your chemicals or wash water.
Did you examine your negatives with a loupe? You could also use a 50mm camera lens (unattached to a camera) like a magnifying glass/loupe.
Examine your negs after they are dry. Unless you are drying your negs in a very dusty environment, you should be ok.
That then leaves the scanning.
You have got very good advice above. All I would add is to not use any type of blower to remove dust from a flat surface, it only moves the dust around.
But an anti-static/micro fiber cleaning cloth and gently wipe in one direction the area you want to keep clean, avoid repeating the action (less is more).

 

[Derek Ealy]

Hmm, I have been using a rocket blower before feeding the negs into the scanner. I've always tried to avoid touching the negs with anything, but at this point I guess it can't hurt.

The scanner is an old (but rather nice quality) Nikon LS-5000. I've already taken it apart a few months ago and gave it a thorough cleaning. The mirror was so full of gunk and cruft I was shocked that I had ever scanned anything before cleaning! This type of scanner doesn't have a bed or glass, it pulls the negs into its own carrier. The scanner is kept beneath a dust cover so it doesn't seem likely to be the dust source.

I'll see about trying the anti-static microfiber.

 

[koraks]

Most of the persistent dust and particle issues I have experienced could be traced back to the fixing, washing and drying stage of my film. After drying, particulate matter may still of course end up on the film, but is usually easily wiped or blown off, and not much of a concern. Just make sure to wipe/blow negs clear before scanning or optical printing.

As to washing etc, there are plenty of threads out there detailing many approaches used by your fellow darkroom workers. We all have our own preferences, so the main storyline is basically to experiment with different measures to see what works for you. Some things you may consider:
* Filter fixer before use, or use fixer one shot
* Use filtered, demineralized or distilled water for the final wash
* Proper use of a wetting agent (e.g. Photoflo) in final wash
* Wiping down or squeegeeing film when hung to dry (controversial - some swear by it, others swear at it...)
Of course it's always a good idea to dry film in an environment that is free of any dust/particles floating around.

As said before by several others, scanning may present its own set of challenges, and some scanners (especially the high resolution ones like yours) tend to emphasize miniscule particles. However, the same is true for optical printing using an enlarger, especially if a condenser setup is used. I disagree with the notion that dust is a lesser concern with optical printing. It certainly is, but what does help, is if you print at smaller enlargements, dust tends to be less visible than when viewing high-res digitally scanned images at 100% magnification.

 

[dealy663]

Most of the persistent dust and particle issues I have experienced could be traced back to the fixing, washing and drying stage of my film. After drying, particulate matter may still of course end up on the film, but is usually easily wiped or blown off, and not much of a concern. Just make sure to wipe/blow negs clear before scanning or optical printing.

As to washing etc, there are plenty of threads out there detailing many approaches used by your fellow darkroom workers. We all have our own preferences, so the main storyline is basically to experiment with different measures to see what works for you. Some things you may consider:
* Filter fixer before use, or use fixer one shot
* Use filtered, demineralized or distilled water for the final wash
* Proper use of a wetting agent (e.g. Photoflo) in final wash
* Wiping down or squeegeeing film when hung to dry (controversial - some swear by it, others swear at it...)
Of course it's always a good idea to dry film in an environment that is free of any dust/particles floating around.

As said before by several others, scanning may present its own set of challenges, and some scanners (especially the high resolution ones like yours) tend to emphasize miniscule particles. However, the same is true for optical printing using an enlarger, especially if a condenser setup is used. I disagree with the notion that dust is a lesser concern with optical printing. It certainly is, but what does help, is if you print at smaller enlargements, dust tends to be less visible than when viewing high-res digitally scanned images at 100% magnification.

Any suggestions on what to filter my fixer with? I’m thinking a cofffee filter would work, I also resume my stop bath,is it worth filtering that also?

 

[koraks]

Yeah, I use coffee filters for things like this. I don't see the point in reusing stop bath since it's just a little vinegar in water, but if you reuse it, I don't think it needs to be filtered like fixer. It has much less of a tendency to accumulate grit.

 

[Bikerider]

Don’t scan. Wet printing gives less or hardly dust problems; in scanning the environment is always static. And stop with Kodak products, not reliable since 2008

100% agree. Scanning is the curse of a B&W silver negative. If you must scan, use Ilford XP2 which will scan and you can use the anti dust feature which is on most modern scanners.

 

[Mesabound]

I've been suffering from this same issue across a variety of films (but mostly HP5+) since I got into self-processing last summer. My best results have come after giving my tank, reels, and chem containers a thorough cleaning, mixing all chems w/ distilled water, mixing fresh fix, distilled final rinse, *and* a quick rinse between stop and fix (I use an acid stop though). Still, though, I'm not sure I've had a single roll come out 100% clean since August. I also use a coolscan similar to yours and know it isn't the issue because the spots are not consistent across frames or even close, when they show up.

Oddly enough I started using sheet film recently and it hasn't been an issue, which makes me wonder if it's microscopic build-up of some sort in the tank itself......

 

[Jonno85uk]

Those dots look a lot like a result of processing with particulates in the solution at some point or not enough washing. I've found that once they're there they aren't coming out. I think they get stuck in the emulsion.

I recently had this issue when I tried the Ilford method of washing instead of my haphazard/inconsistent method of 5 changes of tap water (agitated then soaked). Went back to my old method and the white spots were gone.

 

[ParkerSmithPhoto]

Do not force dry your film. Simply PhotoFlo and hang to dry. No squeegee, no touchee.

I can make 16" silver prints that may have a tiny dust spot here or there, usually none. If I put that same negative in the scanner, I'll have an hour of work with the spotting tool. That's just how it is.

 

[eurekaiv]

Dust is the bane of scanning... right after curly film. After a LOT of trial and error, I've refined my process over the last year and it's been a lot better, even occasionally perfect. But only occasionally. Here's what I do, and what has worked for me.

1: I use distilled water for everything except the rinse. That would just get crazy. Southern California has very very hard water and when I tried D76 using the tap water I had a bad time.
2: Make sure the fixer is fresh. I don't take any chances on it and remix it after about 12 rolls through a half gallon. Using a rapid fixer FWIW. I notice I get more little spots as the fixer gets used, even after very aggressive rinsing.
3. Photo-flo using distilled water. The Kodak stuff is cheap enough that I would stick with it. The Arista stuff I had before was thicker and much harder to measure accurately in 2 or 3ml quantities.
4: Hang dry in the bathroom, with the door closed, or in a proper film cabinet. I've heard steaming up the shower a bit before might help but I don't have enough mental data on this to confirm.
5: Babysit the negatives... as in, don't leave them hanging once dry any longer than necessary. Also, don't try to rush the drying process by cutting them down before they're actually dry and the emulsion is soft. The latter will really ruin your day.
6. I cut the film off the hanger straight into a brand new ziploc bag, take it to my desk, cut off 5 frames at a time and start scanning right away. The longer I wait, the worse the dust gets.

Step 6 has probably made the biggest impact after making sure I didn't use older (but still working) fixer. The air in SoCal in general, is stupidly dusty so it follows that my house is also. Also, the scanner makes a difference as stated above. I picked up a very underpriced Plustek Opticfilm 120 on Craigs List recently and I'm noticing a few more pinhole like spots as compared to the Dimage 5400 II I was using.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Does the position of the dust move around negative-to-negative? Does the position of the dust move when you flip or rotate the negative?

If the answer is yes then the problem is in the negative. If the pattern of the dust remains fixed then the problem is in the scanner.

There is always digital ICE. Takes forever and it doesn't get it all. When I need to use it with old family photos I let it run overnight.