White Dots on Film

[RattyMouse]

If it is in the same location on each frame perhaps it could be something associated contamination before such as when removing the film from the cassette or placing the film on the reels. You can usually see water marks looking at the film on an angle. Besides the suggestions already given have you tried an emulsion cleaner on one of the negatives?

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Not in the same location on all frames. The location can be anywhere on the frame but the pattern is always a line, many many dots in a line that move anywhere on the frame.

 

[RattyMouse]

a lot of people use too much photo flo, and use it wrong .. no clue if this is the case or not but
i was always taught after the film was thoroughly washed fill the film tank up with water almost to the top
put a couple of DROPS of photo flo in the tank
raise and lower the film in the photo flow then bang the tank ( as you would in the beginning of the development cycle to get rid of bubbles )
then gently pour water on top of one edge of the tank to have the foam wash away .. then pull the film out and hang it ...

sometimes misuse of photo flo or other wetting agents, lead to weird stuff being left on the film ...

i'd put the film in water ..
let the emulsion get nice and swollen and see if the white stuff washes off ..
then fill a tray with clean water and a few drops of photo flo and holding the film by a corner .. run it through and hang it someplace dust free

Kodak recommends a 0.5% photoflo concentration. I use a lot more than a few drops but slightly less than 0.5%.

 

[RattyMouse]

I had a very similar problem many years ago.

I finally sorted it when I stopped shaking the reels with the film in them.

I now and have done for many years done the following.

I half fill a large jug with water and wetting agent and drop the reel with film into the jug after the final rinse. Give it a swish round for a minute or so then split the reel and drop the film into the jug, puling one end from the jug and fixing a clip then pulling the film up from the jug and fixing the clip to the hook and then putting clip on the bottom, or just grab the end of the film while it is on the reel, fix a clip and hang that one on the hook and unroll the film grabbing the end and fixing a clip and letting it hang.

I then decant some of the fluid from the jug into a wash bottle and give the front and back of the film a good squirt at the top on both sides so it runs all the way down taking bubbles or suds, if any, off the film.

The row of dots looks like a large drop of water breaking into smaller drops on the film as it is shaken, well that was my conclusion and whether it is correct or not the method I use above causes me no problems with drying marks.

Regards...W

I think you are onto something with your observation. I do shake my film reels very hard once removed from the final Photoflow wash. It makes logical sense than these tiny dots are dispersed throughout the film by the force of this strong shaking. Thank you very much. I'll not do that the next time I develop film.

 

[removed account4]

Kodak recommends a 0.5% photoflo concentration. I use a lot more than a few drops but slightly less than 0.5%.

good luck with that !

 

[Craig75]

I think you are onto something with your observation. I do shake my film reels very hard once removed from the final Photoflow wash. It makes logical sense than these tiny dots are dispersed throughout the film by the force of this strong shaking. Thank you very much. I'll not do that the next time I develop film.

Yes if you shake the reels after photo flo you are removing the very thing you want on your film when you hang it to dry. Soak it, hang it, and water will just sheet straight off the film (imo)

 

[trendland]

You definitive shot an Alien campaign.
It is coming from the mother ship behind the clouds.
Respect RattyMouse !
I would fight against with destilled water
again and again. That eraticates the foreign intruders.

with regards

 

[Born2Late]

Drying marks. Use distilled water for your final rinse mixed with a wetting agent. I get best results with Edwalds. Shake off as much as possible before removing the film from reel and hanging to dry.

 

[RattyMouse]

Drying marks. Use distilled water for your final rinse mixed with a wetting agent. I get best results with Edwalds. Shake off as much as possible before removing the film from reel and hanging to dry.

Your advice contradicts most who have replied to me. I did shake off as much water as possible and these are the results I got.

 

[bvy]

I had similar problems. I stopped soaking the film in PhotoFlo while still on the reel. I see-saw it through the solution and immediately hang it. The film is always vertical from the time it hits the Photo-Flo till the time it's hung to dry. Orientation seems to matter. Having the sheeting action move one way then the other seems detrimental.

 

[Born2Late]

Your advice contradicts most who have replied to me. I did shake off as much water as possible and these are the results I got.

Try it both ways and judge the results.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Why use drops of PhotoFlo with all the inaccuracies, when one can measure out 200:1 or 600:1? It is not exactly rocket science. For 200 use 1 liter of water and 5ml of PhotoFlo.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

If these are drying marks, what do you use as last rinse?

I use a salad spinner to get the water off the film. I am left with many small drops maybe the size of the spots you have shown us, but as the last rinse is photoflo & distilled water, no marks at all appear.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

Yes if you shake the reels after photo flo you are removing the very thing you want on your film when you hang it to dry.

Photoflo changes the surfaces properties of water in order to NOT be on the film for drying (in theory it eliminates the formation of drops).

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

Different idea: air bubbles which formed at the beginning of the stop bath enabling prolonged development?

 

[removed account4]

[

Shake off as much as possible before removing the film from reel and hanging to dry

the thing i was always told about photo flo, by kodak, and teachers
is NOT to hang the film up with a head of foam slowly travelling down the film. and not to shake the film
to cause a ton of bubbles either before or after you photo flo it .. its not supposed
to be something to soak film in, its supposed to be the finishing touch, a quick dip to
help the water get off the film a little faster.

i worked with someone who diluted it to factory specs. he had nothing but trouble, a drop or 3 is all one needs
and it doesn't need to be exact ...

of course YMMV ..

 

[Sirius Glass]

its not supposed
to be something to soak film in, its supposed to be the finishing touch, a quick dip to
help the water get off the film a little faster.

Yes, thirty seconds to a minute is more than enough. Do not let the film just sit in any surfactant for a long time. Good point John.

 

[trendland]

Different idea: air bubbles which formed at the beginning of the stop bath enabling prolonged development?

Nice idea but wrong - drying marks from last water step (final rinse).

with regards

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Edwal LFN is superior to PhotoFlo. I don't know anyone who switched who ever switched back. Never ever have a thread like this with someone who uses LFN. Lots and lots of threads with PhotoFlo problems. Just sayin'.... You can also use it to eliminate air bells in developing which is how I was first turned onto it over two decades ago.

 

[RauschenOderKorn]

Drying drops of water typically leave a bright spot with a dark halo on the negative, which would show on the positive as a dark spot with a bright halo.

We are looking at dark spots on the negative with no halo, i.e. areas which were probably overexposed or fogged/overdeveloped in some way. Maybe overdevelopment due to some kind of contamination prior to actual development, maybe air bubbles trapped during the stop , maybe static electricity when loading the film (yes, that can also leave spots as shown by the OP).

Edit: Not to forget air trapped during fix, but that would probably not show immediately.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I concur about the marks being drying marks, but not with some of the advice given. Too much hearsay, misinformation and speculation.

Whatever wetting agent you use (Photo Flo or Edwal, etc.), it's function is to break up the surface tension of water, preventing the formation of droplets. Proper dilution of the surfactant ensures this is accomplished without leaving excess surfactant around to make marks on your film. Use the manufacturers' recommended dilution or a little weaker, if a weaker dilution sheets well and prevents formation of droplets (this is an easy visual check).

If your water has dissolved minerals in it, you need to get these out of the emulsion before or during your final rinse with the wetting agent. Distilled water is your friend. Soak the film in distilled water for several minutes (3-5 is my preference) to ensure that the level of dissolved minerals in the emulsion is low enough not to cause deposits on the film when dry. The more mineral-laden your water, the longer you'll need to soak. Don't reuse this bath for more that a session (or less if you've got a lot of film per session).

FWIW, I use a distilled water/wetting agent solution for my final rinse. I leave the film in for five minutes or more, with gentle agitation. I have never, in more that 30 years, experienced a problem attributable to letting "the film just sit in any surfactant for a long time." Film is just emulsion on a waterproof base; in 30 seconds or so, the emulsion is saturated with whatever solution in happens to be in contact with. A longer time in the solution then makes no difference regarding the amount of chemistry present in the emulsion itself. However, if there are dissolved minerals, etc. in the emulsion from earlier solutions mixed with tap water, they will leach out into a solution with fewer or no dissolved minerals.

There seems to be a general reluctance to squeegee film here. Shaking, spinning or doing nothing whatsoever seem to be preferred. Certainly, if you've mixed your wetting agent correctly, it should sheet up and run off the film by itself over time. That said, puddles of wetting agent can accumulate around sprocket holes and on film edges (and on the film surface if you've not got a correct dilution of surfactant) causing accumulation of the surfactant itself after the water evaporates and thereby leaving marks/spots/streaks. When I shot roll film, a gentle squeegee between two clean fingers dipped into the wetting agent first removed excess liquid, prevented marks and sped drying. With 4x5 sheet film, I use two swipes between two fingers. Prints get a quick squeegee with a (new and clean) windshield wiper blade. Never a scratch. Film processing machines have squeegees built in that work just fine when clean; why is it that we are hesitant to squeegee our own film then?

I recommend that the OP do the following (since the film is on plastic reels): Use a penultimate distilled/demineralized water bath where the film sits and soaks for 3-5 minutes. Then remove the film from the reels and gently see-saw it through a deep tray of wetting agent (mixed with distilled water and at the proper dilution), taking care not the scratch the film on the tray. After 30 seconds or so of this, squeegee the film gently between two wet fingers along its entire length with one swipe. Hang to dry in a dust free place. With stainless steel reels I simply put the film on the reel in the wetting agent. Plastic reels seem to have some issues with film contact and with residue, hence the suggestion to remove the film from the reel.

Best,

Doremus

 

[WilmarcoImaging]

I concur about the marks being drying marks, but not with some of the advice given. Too much hearsay, misinformation and speculation.

Whatever wetting agent you use (Photo Flo or Edwal, etc.), it's function is to break up the surface tension of water, preventing the formation of droplets. Proper dilution of the surfactant ensures this is accomplished without leaving excess surfactant around to make marks on your film. Use the manufacturers' recommended dilution or a little weaker, if a weaker dilution sheets well and prevents formation of droplets (this is an easy visual check).

If your water has dissolved minerals in it, you need to get these out of the emulsion before or during your final rinse with the wetting agent. Distilled water is your friend. Soak the film in distilled water for several minutes (3-5 is my preference) to ensure that the level of dissolved minerals in the emulsion is low enough not to cause deposits on the film when dry. The more mineral-laden your water, the longer you'll need to soak. Don't reuse this bath for more that a session (or less if you've got a lot of film per session).

FWIW, I use a distilled water/wetting agent solution for my final rinse. I leave the film in for five minutes or more, with gentle agitation. I have never, in more that 30 years, experienced a problem attributable to letting "the film just sit in any surfactant for a long time." Film is just emulsion on a waterproof base; in 30 seconds or so, the emulsion is saturated with whatever solution in happens to be in contact with. A longer time in the solution then makes no difference regarding the amount of chemistry present in the emulsion itself. However, if there are dissolved minerals, etc. in the emulsion from earlier solutions mixed with tap water, they will leach out into a solution with fewer or no dissolved minerals.

There seems to be a general reluctance to squeegee film here. Shaking, spinning or doing nothing whatsoever seem to be preferred. Certainly, if you've mixed your wetting agent correctly, it should sheet up and run off the film by itself over time. That said, puddles of wetting agent can accumulate around sprocket holes and on film edges (and on the film surface if you've not got a correct dilution of surfactant) causing accumulation of the surfactant itself after the water evaporates and thereby leaving marks/spots/streaks. When I shot roll film, a gentle squeegee between two clean fingers dipped into the wetting agent first removed excess liquid, prevented marks and sped drying. With 4x5 sheet film, I use two swipes between two fingers. Prints get a quick squeegee with a (new and clean) windshield wiper blade. Never a scratch. Film processing machines have squeegees built in that work just fine when clean; why is it that we are hesitant to squeegee our own film then?

I recommend that the OP do the following (since the film is on plastic reels): Use a penultimate distilled/demineralized water bath where the film sits and soaks for 3-5 minutes. Then remove the film from the reels and gently see-saw it through a deep tray of wetting agent (mixed with distilled water and at the proper dilution), taking care not the scratch the film on the tray. After 30 seconds or so of this, squeegee the film gently between two wet fingers along its entire length with one swipe. Hang to dry in a dust free place. With stainless steel reels I simply put the film on the reel in the wetting agent. Plastic reels seem to have some issues with film contact and with residue, hence the suggestion to remove the film from the reel.

Best,

Doremus

+1 on squeegee-ing the film with clean fingers, for all film formats, BW and C-41.