Which speed to use by night with Cinestill 800?

Kowloon · Aug 27, 2022

Hi all,

Quite tough to get an answer to that question by myself online, so I try here. On what speed should I set my lightmeter to shoot neons by night in the street?

I basically want the same results as his without a big halo surrounding the red colors, such as here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-OKve0KCI (at 3:16, etc.)

Is the use of a tripod mandatory?

Thank you!

Huss · Aug 27, 2022

If you use Cinestill 800, you will get halos around light sources as it does not have an anti-halation layer on the film.

If you don't want halos, use a different film like Portra 800 or Lomo 800

Evergreen States · Aug 27, 2022

Huss said:
If you use Cinestill 800, you will get halos around light sources as it does not have an anti-halation layer on the film.

If you don't want halos, use a different film like Portra 800 or Lomo 800

This

Kowloon · Aug 28, 2022

Just bought one Portra 800 to test it!

How should I set the lightmeter if shooting neons by night? I read here and there that you can divide or multiply the speed of the film so that when shooting 800 you could either set the camera at 400 or 1600, but still quite foggy to me. Is there a specific rule?

Huss · Aug 28, 2022

Neon lights are very easy to shoot. Just go by your camera’s built in meter. As they are a light source they will be bright enough to use your film at box speed i.e ISO 800

Also make it easy on yourself by using a fast lens like a 50mm 1.8 or 28mm f2 or 2.8. Do not use a slow zoom lens!

Evergreen States · Aug 28, 2022

This was shot on Cinestill 800T that I rated at ISO 500 and had it developed normally. I may have even added a little exposure compensation but I don’t remember. I think the red in the jacket is still a bit muddy and I don’t know how well this would print. I cropped it and heavily manipulated the colors in Capture One.

I’d never shot Cinestill 800T before and I think it turned out nicely. I look forward to doing it again sometime.

Huss · Aug 28, 2022

Cinestill Shot at 800

runswithsizzers · Aug 28, 2022

Kowloon said:
On what speed should I set my lightmeter to shoot neons by night in the street?

Kowloon said:
Is the use of a tripod mandatory?

You should be able to answer your questions with a few simple tests.

As a starting point, try setting your meter to box speed (ISO 800) and go out into the night. Frame a few neon lit scenes, set your desired aperture - and what shutter speed does your meter suggest?

Assuming you are using a normal or wide focal length lens (that is, assuming you are not using a telephoto lens), and if your meter says to use a shutter speed of at least 1/60th second or faster - then you shouldn't need a tripod - assuming your hands are steady.

If you can't get a shutter of at least 1/60th second, even if you open up the lens to a wider aperture, then you may need to set your meter to a faster ISO. If you double the film speed from 800 to EI 1600, then you should ask the lab for 1-stop push processing. Not all labs offer push processing, and if they do, the processing will probably cost more and take longer.

You might want to consider bracketing your exposures. That is, take one shot at what your meter tells you, and then take a second shot with 1-stop more exposure - either use the next slower shutter speed, or use an aperture that is one-stop wider).

Make sense?

Thesecondone · Aug 28, 2022

Huss said:
Cinestill Shot at 800

Would these be long exposure shots?

Kowloon · Aug 29, 2022

Thank you all for your replies!

runswithsizzers said:
You should be able to answer your questions with a few simple tests.

As a starting point, try setting your meter to box speed (ISO 800) and go out into the night. Frame a few neon lit scenes, set your desired aperture - and what shutter speed does your meter suggest?

Assuming you are using a normal or wide focal length lens (that is, assuming you are not using a telephoto lens), and if your meter says to use a shutter speed of at least 1/60th second or faster - then you shouldn't need a tripod - assuming your hands are steady.

If you can't get a shutter of at least 1/60th second, even if you open up the lens to a wider aperture, then you may need to set your meter to a faster ISO. If you double the film speed from 800 to EI 1600, then you should ask the lab for 1-stop push processing. Not all labs offer push processing, and if they do, the processing will probably cost more and take longer.

You might want to consider bracketing your exposures. That is, take one shot at what your meter tells you, and then take a second shot with 1-stop more exposure - either use the next slower shutter speed, or use an aperture that is one-stop wider).

Make sense?

Yes, make sense. I will be using a Nikon F with a 50mm 1:2 and a non built in light meter. Let's see how it goes.

brbo · Aug 29, 2022

Kowloon said:
Yes, make sense. I will be using a Nikon F with a 50mm 1:2 and a non built in light meter. Let's see how it goes.

If you insist on using a meter (incident or spot meter?)... Incident meter will be of very limited use in situation where you are mostly concerned about neon lights exposure and handholdability. Without adequate interpretation of what the incident reading is giving you, you'll probably be (unnecessarily) overexposing your shots (I understand that capturing neon lights in the best way is your primary objective). You'll probably be save to underexpose by 2-3 stops from that reading. If you have spot meter a good rule of thumb would be to measure the neon sign and overexpose 3 stops from that reading. This is all very simplified. You will learn from experience and get better about reading the scene.

If I'm not shooting LF I usually don't carry a light meter and at night I just use the widest usable aperture on the lens and the longest shutter speed that I know I can hold without too much shake (with slide film you might want to take that with a grain of salt as you could maybe end up overexposing if lights are really strong). Works for me. Not much neon lights where I live, though. But I do like to capture lights on film for the play of different light sources (of different temperature) in the scene alone...

Provia 400X:

Provia 100F @ 400:

Ektachrome E100G:

Ektar 100:

Fuji C200:

Kowloon · Aug 29, 2022

I do not really insist on using a light meter but why not if it eases the whole process instead of doing something that I would consider approximate? It is just that I have absolutely no idea how to do without but yes, I could try to set the lens at F/2 with shutter at 1/60 for example and see how it goes since I do not know when exactly shaking starts to be an issue according to the shutter speed.

Here is a picture of my lightmeter

brbo · Aug 29, 2022

1/60s Do you come from digital or do you have really fast lenses? You will most probably have to go way bellow that to capture some of the ambient.

That looks like a reactance meter that you use on your cold/hot shoe? Does it come with a manual where you could learn what area (angle) does it use to read light?

Kowloon · Aug 29, 2022

brbo said:
1/60s Do you come from digital or do you have really fast lenses? You will most probably have to go way bellow that to capture some of the ambient.

Like 1 second for example? I only have a 50mm 1:2 and a 105mm. You can find more here.

I am a total newbie and I haven't touched a camera for something like a decade actually. Even more for film camera. It is indeed a meter to set on the cold shoe and here is a picture from the manual but no much on it.

runswithsizzers · Aug 29, 2022

Kowloon said:
I do not really insist on using a light meter but why not if it eases the whole process instead of doing something that I would consider approximate? It is just that I have absolutely no idea how to do without but yes, I could try to set the lens at F/2 with shutter at 1/60 for example and see how it goes since I do not know when exactly shaking starts to be an issue according to the shutter speed.

Here is a picture of my lightmeter

View attachment 314611

Yes, since you have one, why not use the light meter?

The first question, is what ISO/EI to use? We have already discussed that. Anytime you are new to a film, I suggest starting with the "box speed" ISO. Others will tell you they always expose their negative film at some EI lower than the box speed because, generally speaking, over exposure is preferable to underexposure. You may want to do that with your second roll, depending on how thick or thin (dark or light) the negatives from the first roll are. When you pick up the negatives from the lab, ask the lab to give an opinion about whether the negatives look properly exposed. If they say the negatives are too thin, then choose a lower ISO for metering the next roll - try something like 500 rather than 800.

The next question is, do you want to meter "normally" - that is, do you want to set the camera to what your meter tells you? - or do you need to "compensate" by increasing or decreasing the camera settings compared to the meter reading? This gets a little tricky, for several reasons. In my experience, I usually do not compensate. That is, I just used my camera's built in meter reading. But my experience was using slide film, not negative film. Furthermore, my photos were intended to show only the neon light - but the examples you link to show a lot more of the environment around the light, so you may want more exposure than what your meter says(?) Hard to know until you try it.

As for shutter speed, in my experience, using a 50mm lens, handheld, I have to pay attention to avoid camera shake at 1/60th sec. By "pay attention" I mean squeeze the shutter gently just after exhaling. Others will tell you they can shoot handheld at 1/30th, but I'm not one of them. At 1/30th second or slower, I would recommend a tripod and a shutter release cable. But if you don't have a tripod, then it is sometimes possible to find a substitute in the environment. Look around for a sign post, hand rail, or wall you can brace against, and sometimes you can get good results at 1/30th, 1/15th, or even 1/8th second.

In this example (slide film) notice the straight camera meter exposure resulted in the background being quite dark.

Huss · Aug 29, 2022

Thesecondone said:
Would these be long exposure shots?

Nope. And both taken with P&S cameras. To be fair, the second one was taken w a Rollei QZ35 which is pretty much the ultimate P&S camera but still.

brbo · Aug 29, 2022

Kowloon said:
Like 1 second for example? I only have a 50mm 1:2 and a 105mm. You can find more here.

I'd expect you'd be down to 1/15s pretty fast even with iso 800 film.

Kowloon said:
It is indeed a meter to set on the cold shoe and here is a picture from the manual but no much on it.

That meter is pretty primitive. It will be like having a compact camera with simple average metering mode and angle wider even wider than your lens, no fancy matrix metering, no option to selectively meter the scene...

Most of the time, metering or setting the exposure is easy. Explaining how to make it easy - that's hard. I'd say go out with you phone (if you don't have a digital camera) and your light meter. See if and when phone light meter and your external meter get fooled by bright lights.

CMoore · Aug 29, 2022

Kowloon said:
Hi all,

Quite tough to get an answer to that question by myself online, so I try here. On what speed should I set my lightmeter to shoot neons by night in the street?

I basically want the same results as his without a big halo surrounding the red colors, such as here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-OKve0KCI (at 3:16, etc.)

Is the use of a tripod mandatory?

Thank you!

I hope you post your results here.!!!

For my beginner photo class...year end project... i shot a bunch of neon signs in San Francisco and Sacramento.
Just B&W film...HP5... and i shot during the day.
I had planned on also shooting the same signs at night, but i ran out of time.
The older signs..... that were ubiquitous at one time..... at Bars, Hotels, Bakeries, Theaters, etc etc......................were beautiful works of art.

npl · Sep 6, 2022

Not agreeing with some of the answers here. You don't *have* to use a fast lens unless you want a shallow depth of field or *have* to shoot hand-held in low light and are prepared to sacrifice your DOF for that. I also see mention of push processing, not something to jump right on and it's confusing beginners thinking they can change ISO like a DSLR.

So it's pretty simple, take a tripod because you'll need it. Set up your camera in front of your composition, set your hot shoe light meter at box speed (here 800 ISO), set the aperture at the value that serve your composition, and use the shutter speed that your light meter will give you (see your manual). It will most likely be below 1/60, hence why you need the tripod to avoid blurry shots.

You may or may not read up first on the "aperture triangle" and the relationship between aperture and depth of field if something sound confusing. Happy shooting

Huss · Sep 6, 2022

npl said:
Not agreeing with some of the answers here. You don't *have* to use a fast lens unless you want a shallow depth of field or *have* to shoot hand-held in low light and are prepared to sacrifice your DOF for that. I also see mention of push processing, not something to jump right on and it's confusing beginners thinking they can change ISO like a DSLR.

So it's pretty simple, take a tripod because you'll need it. Set up your camera in front of your composition, set your hot shoe light meter at box speed (here 800 ISO), set the aperture at the value that serve your composition, and use the shutter speed that your light meter will give you (see your manual). It will most likely be below 1/60, hence why you need the tripod to avoid blurry shots.

You may or may not read up first on the "aperture triangle" and the relationship between aperture and depth of field if something sound confusing. Happy shooting

If you use a wide angle lens you can shoot wide open and still have plenty of dof, plus your hand held speeds are 1/ focal length so you can even stop down if you want and not use a tripod.
w a 28mm lens, you should be able to easily handhold at 1/30.
With iso 800 film and neon lights? Piece o cake.

250swb · Sep 6, 2022

Kowloon said:
I do not really insist on using a light meter but why not if it eases the whole process instead of doing something that I would consider approximate? It is just that I have absolutely no idea how to do without but yes, I could try to set the lens at F/2 with shutter at 1/60 for example and see how it goes since I do not know when exactly shaking starts to be an issue according to the shutter speed.

Here is a picture of my lightmeter

View attachment 314611

I would take a step back, and then another step back, and maybe another. Just start in daylight for a roll or five, then dusk for a roll or ten and see how you go on. And then darkness and bright lights and be fully expectant to be disappointed. There is no formula for what you describe you want to do, only people's 'it works for me' responses, but what you are asking is one of the most difficult questions in photography because the answer for you lies in experience, which you don't have.

runswithsizzers · Sep 6, 2022

There has been some discussion about what kind of shutter speeds to expect if shooting neon lights at night with ISO 800 film. Of course, the only way to know for sure would be to expose some film under actual shooting conditions.

Several sources have compiled charts of various lighting conditions and assigned an EV (Exposure Value) to each level. One such chart is included with the "Jiffy Calculator" which I copied from <this web site> and reproduced below:

In the chart above, an EV of 9 has been assigned for neon lights. But to be conservative, let's look at some similar night-time scenes which have lower EVs like 6, 7, or 8.

<This website> provides a chart to convert EV numbers into combinations of aperture and shutter speed. Looking under ISO 800, at the row for EV 6, the chart indicates and aperture of f/2.0 would need a shutter speed of 1/125 sec, and at f/2.8 you could shoot at 1/60 sec. So even if the actual EV is 2 or 3 stops less brightness than EV 9, then the OP should be able to get hand-holdable shutter speeds with his 50mm f/2.0 lens. And if his neon scenes are actually EV 8 or 9, then it may be possible to use some mid-range apertures before his shutter speed drops below 1/60 sec. This is all hypothetical, of course, and needs to be proven for actual conditions. I hope the OP will post some results.

Huss · Sep 6, 2022

runswithsizzers said:
There has been some discussion about what kind of shutter speeds to expect if shooting neon lights at night with ISO 800 film. Of course, the only way to know for sure would be to expose some film under actual shooting conditions.

Several sources have compiled charts of various lighting conditions and assigned an EV (Exposure Value) to each level. One such chart is included with the "Jiffy Calculator" which I copied from <this web site> and reproduced below:
View attachment 315301
In the chart above, an EV of 9 has been assigned for neon lights. But to be conservative, let's look at some similar night-time scenes which have lower EVs like 6, 7, or 8.

<This website> provides a chart to convert EV numbers into combinations of aperture and shutter speed. Looking under ISO 800, at the row for EV 6, the chart indicates and aperture of f/2.0 would need a shutter speed of 1/125 sec, and at f/2.8 you could shoot at 1/60 sec. So even if the actual EV is 2 or 3 stops less brightness than EV 9, then the OP should be able to get hand-holdable shutter speeds with his 50mm f/2.0 lens. And if his neon scenes are actually EV 8 or 9, then it may be possible to use some mid-range apertures before his shutter speed drops below 1/60 sec. This is all hypothetical, of course, and needs to be proven for actual conditions. I hope the OP will post some results.

View attachment 315302

Excellent! Thanks for posting.

Huss · Sep 6, 2022

Shot with an Agfa 1535 and Fuji C200. Maybe 1/30 sec handheld.
It's easy. You are taking pictures of lights, which, wait for it, create light! Just go out and do it.

Kowloon · Sep 7, 2022

I went out 2 nights ago and I just got the results. Well, it is mostly crap, but I am still learning.

Made with Nikon F + 50mm f:1.2 and no tripod

As far as I can understand, I would say that I have allowed too much light inside my camera. I have used the app LightMeter on my phone to try it, the issue is that you can only choose to have the result of one value on it. I needed to know which shutter speed to use, so I had to set the aperture and the ISO first, but having no idea which aperture I needed, I almost always set it at f/2, hence the disgusting results.

The grain is also quite here.

Which speed to use by night with Cinestill 800?

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