Which Sepia Toner?

gijsbert · Jan 11, 2021

I have used Berg Rapid Sepia Toner but the toner seems exhausted and doesn't redevelop the bleached print properly. I just looked to buy a new box of the Berg Toner but it seems to be out of stock in the online stores I know in Canada (or US).
I found Fomatoner but the spec says the mixed working solution only lasts a week, which seems wasteful since I only print/tone once a week. Any suggestions for another sepia toner?

NB23 · Jan 11, 2021

Agfa Viradon, (brown sulfur toner) if you can find it. I don’t know what are the other names/manufacturers but I believe a sulfur brown toner is easy to obtain.

The capacity is crazy high, and it works very well. It just stinks, though.

I dip my prints for about 5-10 seconds for a warmtone look. So far I have about 100 8x10 prints with my 3liters 1:100 solution (30ml viradon for 3000ml water).

I’ve calculated that a 125ml bottle will tone about 1000 prints if a proper logistic is followed.

mnemosyne · Jan 11, 2021

gijsbert said:
I found Fomatoner but the spec says the mixed working solution only lasts a week, which seems wasteful since I only print/tone once a week. Any suggestions for another sepia toner?

Do not worry. "One week" must be a serious understatement by the manufacturer. My current batch of Foma Sepia toner was mixed in 2017 and I have used it for occasional sepa toning over the last years. It is still active and working! It is kept in brown 1 liter glass bottles. From my experience I would say, it lasts more or less indefinitely. I just recently toned a 20x24" Fomatone print and toner action was quite strong. I did use demineralized water for mixing bleach and toner, but I have no idea if that is a contributing factor.

This toner is a great product, cheap and goes a long way. It is also easier to work with than with a direct toner (no fumes/smells, easy to control the toning process). It gives beautiful results with Foma papers (Fomatone as well as Fombarom). It works also very well with Ilford Multigrade, IIRC.

R.Gould · Jan 11, 2021

One week for fomatoner is a very conservetive estimate, I have used mixed Fomatoner sepia up to 6 months after mixing,

brian steinberger · Jan 11, 2021

I recommend obtaining the three chemicals needed for creating your own sepia toner, mixed when you need it as I do or creating stock solutions which are diluted when needed. All you need is thiocarbamide, potassium bromide and sodium hydroxide. You will also need a small kitchen scale.

bernard_L · Jan 11, 2021

brian steinberger said:
I recommend obtaining the three chemicals needed for creating your own sepia toner, mixed when you need it as I do or creating stock solutions which are diluted when needed. All you need is thiocarbamide, potassium bromide and sodium hydroxide. You will also need a small kitchen scale.

+1
Except you also need fericyanide.
Works well, variable tone according to hydroxide/thiocarbamide mixing ratio. Read somewhere that sodium carbonate may be substitued for sodium hydroxide (lower pH) for more sepia tones.

Patrick Robert James · Jan 11, 2021

After years of using the Berg type thiocarbamide toners I switched back to the Kodak Sulfide toners. Easy to mix yourself and while they are stinky, I think they give a nicer, warmer tone. Thiocarbamide toners tend to be too cold for my taste. That is just opinion of course. You can get a big jar of Sulfide at PF for a reasonable price. You can also vary the tone by adjusting your bleach. For a normal bleach though you only need Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide. You can mix fresh every time too if you wanted. A working bleach uses a very small amount of chemicals.

Fotospeed makes a variable sepia toner too that would be a thiocarbamide toner.

Ned mentioned Viradon which is I believe a polysulfide/selenium combo toner. One bath. It is a colder "sepia" as well. And like he said it last a looong time.

Another option if you are concerned about longevity is Hypo-Alum toner. It lasts forever but it is slower to work. One bath as well.

Hope that helps...

brian steinberger · Jan 11, 2021

bernard_L said:
+1
Except you also need fericyanide.
Works well, variable tone according to hydroxide/thiocarbamide mixing ratio. Read somewhere that sodium carbonate may be substitued for sodium hydroxide (lower pH) for more sepia tones.

That’s right , Thanks for correcting me.

grain elevator · Jan 11, 2021

Can't all sufide toners be used as direct toners? In that case, no need for ferricyanide (and bromide, that's only for the bleach, right?).

brian steinberger · Jan 11, 2021

I believe the brown toners are poly sulfide toners and can be used directly or indirectly with a bleach. In my experience neutral papers respond better to indirect toning in brown toner and warm tone papers respond better to direct toning.

Below is my formula for mixing a simple thio sepia bath.

Bleach:
750ml water
Potassium Ferricyanide 2-10g (depending on bleach strength necessary)
Potassium Bromide 5g
Water to make 1 liter

Toner:
750ml water
Thiocarbamide 10g
Sodium Hydroxide 3-10g (depending on color. 3g toward yellow and 10g toward brown/purple)
Water to make 1 liter

I sometimes mix a teaspoon of sodium chloride (salt) into the bleach as well. This will help papers that don’t respond well to subtle toning (split toning).

Hope this helps

Arthurwg · Jan 11, 2021

I'm still using Kodak Polytoner , fast and easy, no bleaching necessary. I'm down to my last bottle but I understand it's easy to make. The color is easily altered by the amount used, duration and water temperature, and a little goes a long way. I use 20ml with 1000ml water.

MattKing · Jan 11, 2021

This is Ilford Multigrade IV RC Satin surface toned in the no longer manufactured Agfa Viradon Brown toner:

It looks slightly more red than in real life.

john_s · Jan 11, 2021

Arthurwg said:
I'm still using Kodak Polytoner , fast and easy, no bleaching necessary. I'm down to my last bottle but I understand it's easy to make. The color is easily altered by the amount used, duration and water temperature, and a little goes a long way. I use 20ml with 1000ml water.

There are instructions from Kodak to make Polytoner but it's not as simple as mixing up a developer. You need Kodak Brown Toner (is that available?) and selenium powder, and preferably some equipment for constant mixing and filtration.

gijsbert · Jan 11, 2021

Thanks for all the replies!
I don't quite feel ready for mixing my own toner so I think I'll go for Fomatoner for now.

The berg toner bleach is still quite active, could I use that bleach with the toner part of the Fomatoner, or should I really stick to the bleach coming with the Fomatoner?
The Berg Rapid Sepia toner explicitly mentions that it does NOT contain ferricyanide so it is a different bleach. The Berg bleach is blue, I googled a bit too see what it is but haven't found any information yet.

mshchem · Jan 11, 2021

Dilute selenium and warmtone paper yields nice warm browns. Get a old copy of the Darkroom Cookbook, and a couple ingredients you can make anything.

mshchem · Jan 11, 2021

Generic bleach and redevelopment toners are bleach composed of potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. The toner is usually potassium sulfide or a mixture called liver of sulfur. The sulfides stink to high heaven, thus the popularity of small sealed pouches. Arista Freestyle Legacy Pro, have this kind of toner for 7 dollars for 1 quart of each solution. It will last a long time. Dilution of the bleach or cool, very short times in the bleach helps you to regulate how much tone you get.

mnemosyne · Jan 12, 2021

gijsbert said:
Thanks for all the replies!
I don't quite feel ready for mixing my own toner so I think I'll go for Fomatoner for now.

The berg toner bleach is still quite active, could I use that bleach with the toner part of the Fomatoner, or should I really stick to the bleach coming with the Fomatoner?
The Berg Rapid Sepia toner explicitly mentions that it does NOT contain ferricyanide so it is a different bleach. The Berg bleach is blue, I googled a bit too see what it is but haven't found any information yet.

This thread has some info on the Berg bleach. It is presumably based on copper sulfate (not Blue Curaçao ) You could just give it a try. In any case, make sure you rinse the paper thoroughly after bleach.

I added an example of the tones that can be achieved with Foma Sepia Toner. The paper is Fomabrom (fix grade). For comparison, the prints in the background are untoned (right) and KRST 1+9 (left).

gijsbert · Jan 12, 2021

mnemosyne said:
This thread has some info on the Berg bleach. It is presumably based on copper sulfate (not Blue Curaçao ) You could just give it a try. In any case, make sure you rinse the paper thoroughly after bleach.

I added an example of the tones that can be achieved with Foma Sepia Toner. The paper is Fomabrom (fix grade). For comparison, the prints in the background are untoned (right) and KRST 1+9 (left).
View attachment 263633

Thanks for the link and photo of toned results!
Was the sepia toned version fully bleached? An more for reference, is Fomabrom a 'regular' paper or warmtone?

mnemosyne · Jan 12, 2021

gijsbert said:
Thanks for the link and photo of toned results!
Was the sepia toned version fully bleached? An more for reference, is Fomabrom a 'regular' paper or warmtone?

Yes, it was fully bleached. Fomabrom is Foma's neutral tone graded FB paper. My examples were developed in Neutol WA. The image tone of Fomabrom Variant (the variable contrast version) may differ, IDK. I think I also have some examples of Fomatone Classic (variable contrast warm tone FB paper), but would have to check.

pentaxuser · Jan 12, 2021

There's a video by a person called Trangent who demonstrates the Kodak and Berg Sepia Toners. It would appear from that the The blue Berg toner compared to the Kodak one works very quick. Worth a look IMO

pentaxuser

cliveh · Jan 12, 2021

grain elevator said:
Can't all sufide toners be used as direct toners? In that case, no need for ferricyanide (and bromide, that's only for the bleach, right?).

You need the potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide to bleach the print before toning. In my opinion the best sepia toned prints are made with sulfide toners as opposed to Thiocarbamide. Although the sulfide toners do stink to high heaven, the process can be carried out outside.

Arthurwg · Jan 12, 2021

john_s said:
There are instructions from Kodak to make Polytoner but it's not as simple as mixing up a developer. You need Kodak Brown Toner (is that available?) and selenium powder, and preferably some equipment for constant mixing and filtration.

I happen to have a large bottle of Kodak Brown Toner, never used.

grain elevator · Jan 12, 2021

cliveh said:
You need the potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide to bleach the print before toning. In my opinion the best sepia toned prints are made with sulfide toners as opposed to Thiocarbamide. Although the sulfide toners do stink to high heaven, the process can be carried out outside.

Well I just toned some prints in a polysulfide toner (Moersch MT-4) the other day, without bleaching, and I really like the results (but not the smell). More subtle than indirect for sure, but very noticeable - green tint gone, beautiful hints of ochre. I thought the same was in principle possible with all sulfide (based) toners, although of course it may not appeal in all cases.

pentaxuser · Jan 12, 2021

cliveh said:
Although the sulfide toners do stink to high heaven, the process can be carried out outside.

Yes but good luck outside for probably at least 7 months of the year in our old Blightly

pentaxuser

thefizz · Jan 13, 2021

Moersch MT3 Vario is a great Sepia toner.

Which Sepia Toner?

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